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Infant feeding

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Why would the charity Tommy's think it's a good idea to "team up" with Aptamil?!

156 replies

tabouleh · 15/09/2010 15:16

Tommy's and Aptamil's midwifery training grants.

Unbelievable.

It gets the Aptamil logo onto Tommy's website. Shock

Tommy's should be encouraging BFing not giving space to a formula company on its website and sposoring midwives!

Aptamil must be so pleased with themselves.

OP posts:
lizzytee · 16/09/2010 13:46

I am so grateful that DD1 was born at Queen Charlotte's, a hospital that actively encourages kangaroo mother case. I hardly understood at the time how important early and regular kangaroo care was for all kinds of things. Breastfeeding. Milk supply. Temperature regulation. Breathing. Comfort. Love. Feeling a little more like a mother and less like a failure.

So, not just a cuddle.

porcamiseria · 16/09/2010 13:51

maybe its just me, but I DONT think we live in a culture that promotes FF

midwifes, encourage BF, right from the minute you give birth

post natal, ditto

HV, ditto

all baby books, ditto

in post natal ward nearly every woman I saw was BF

now they may well give up a few weeks in, and that I agree is a sad and an issue. but thats cos BF is bloody hard work

I dont hugely like what aptamil are doing, but I do not beleive for one minute that it will make peoples mind up for them, it will give tommys some much needed money

promoting FF to the 3rd world is EVIL, but this is a western isswue for now

hildathebuilder · 16/09/2010 13:56

Foxy I think it is a bit tangential but you raise a lot of good points. My DS latched on at 30 weeks when still hooked up to all manner of things, and we did a lot of kangaroo care throughout his stay as did my DH. The hospietal encourage it all. I suspect that helped me to carry on BF now. It did not stop many hours of heatache about whether he would thrive, and for me at least the psycological support of having high calorie formula available was worth something, not a lot as I am bloody minded but something. The hospital was a big teaching hospityal with a level 1 NICU, and they knew their research. I do not know if any of this research was funded by Tommy's. But if it was I am grateful to it.

First world NICU don't help with BF, I was discharged on day 4 DS on day 53. It's a bit hard to BF a baby when you are sleeping in a different place to each other. However until we all pay a lot more in taxes this situation will continue. I was discharged as I had no medical needs. The ward was often closed because it was full. Babies were often moved from the NICU to other hospitals to make space for others who were more needy. If the hospital had more funding then maybe that would not have been necessary. But until we do all pay more tax to fund hospitals, midwives, nurses, equipment etc it is difficult to fund research. The thirs world developed Kangaroo care because it was the option they had. It was clearly vital in those countries. It is very beneficial in the UK.

It was the ventilator and the many medical professionals that knew how to save my DS life. If Tommy's helps with that brilliant. If they don't have enough funding from ethically acceptable sources then it isn't black and white that they should refuse aptamil.

Finally I completely understand why many many posters object to the logo on the website. But at least when you know where money comes from we can comment, and if necessary dispute any research or for that matter statements made by or funded by Aptamil much like we do with big tobacco and cancer.

MoonFaceMama · 16/09/2010 14:00

porcam of course bf is hard work. But if we lived in a more bf friendly society this would be less of a problem. This deserters another thread so i'm off to start one. See you there i hope. Smile

hildathebuilder · 16/09/2010 14:01

Foxy I have not taken anything you or anyone else has said as a relfection on my individual sitaution. I also do not believe anyone has been impolite in response to my views which are clearly in the minority here, unlike some of the posts which apparently support my position. I do not see anyone here as a BF nazi or similar.

In part I have added details about my individual situation and those of DS to explain those views and why I hold them and why I don't see this as being a straightforward issue that taking money from a formula company is always bad. As I stated a few pages ago I think we should perhaps ask Tommy's why they did this.

DS now crying so logging off for a bit!

mrsgordonfreeman · 16/09/2010 14:03

BF is bloody hard work

err, no, it's easy once you know how.

I'm afraid we do live in an ff culture. What accessory do almost all baby dolls come with?

Aptamil aren't giving Tommy's any money! They are giving midwives training grants.

BuongiornoPrincipessa · 16/09/2010 14:07

But we do live in a ff culture as most of us were ff, ff babies routines, sleep patterns and behaviours are seen as the norm because that's what we have grown up seeing and believing.

Encouraging bf is not the issue, most women want to bf but properly supporting it is another issue. Many people give up early because they do not have support, and because their babies do not seem to conform to the ff " norm".

Bf is hard because our society does almost everything to deter us, by making us feel awkward in public, by making us distrust our bodies' abilities, and presenting a formula bottle as some kind of magic solution to all problems.

foxytocin · 16/09/2010 14:08

promiscaria:

I have a daughter who breastfed till she was 5. She tandem fed for 18months with her now 2yo sister.

She asked me the other day if we can buy dd2 some of 'that' pointing to the toddler milk ad on telly.

DD2 also sees bottlefeeding all the time at nursery where she'll be till nearly 5 and she bottlefeeds dollies too while she is there.

The ff culture starts long before a woman comes into contact with HCPs as it is normal.

BoobBuffet · 16/09/2010 14:08

Totally agree Foxytocin, I think Sweden is leading the way, but we are woefully beind. Very sad.

BoobBuffet · 16/09/2010 14:13

Sorry, meant to say agree with kangeroo care. I'm clearly too slow at this!

jemjabella · 16/09/2010 14:18

porcamiseria - midwives nag about breastfeeding and then ask if you've got them into a routine yet, are they going 3/4 hours between feeds yet. HVs question when babies aren't following FORMULA FED baby weight lines, discourage safe co-sleeping (which has been shown to increase duration of breastfeeding) etc. Store changing rooms are indicated with a picture of a bottle, my local Asda cafe has a giant hanging picture of a baby being bottle fed to indicate that it's baby friendly (am yet to write a letter about this one). Dolls come with bottles and dummies attached. That is just a small portion of how we are a FF-pushing nation, and that's before we even get to peer pressure, etc. You only have to read this board (Breast & Bottle Feeding) for 5 mins to see the huge range of shit advice that women are given by those supposedly supporting BFing.

foxytocin · 16/09/2010 15:34

hilda, the encouragement for KMC at your hospital is the exception rather than the rule in the UK. Sad My friend with her 30 weeker who was trasferred to 3 hospitals in the region before he came home at 37 weeks, tells a lamentable story of the staffs' attitudes to breastfeeding never mind KMC.

Things like not telling her that there was no more EBM left to supplement him instead of letting her know that they were running low so that she could bring in more from her home freezer.

The phrases and dismissive attitudes that spelled out, in her words, 'I don't know hwy you insist on this bfing malarky, he is only going ot end up on formula anyway.'

they basically treated her with the attitude that she was making their jobs harder because she wanted to breastfeed.

arriving at the hospital to find her son so distressed because of the length of time he was crying and just being ignored by is named NICU nurse.

foxytocin · 16/09/2010 15:46

"The thirs world developed Kangaroo care because it was the option they had. It was clearly vital in those countries. It is very beneficial in the UK."

this is an awkward statement to address. KMC started in Colombia because they did not have the money for enough incubators. Colombia is not a 3rd world country, it is let's say, a 2nd world country because all the hi-tech stuff of the first world is there but not as accessible to everyone, iyswim.

it didn't take long to notice that the KMC babies, overall, did better than the incubator babies. Going home earlier and all the other factors that contribute to htis. It is understandable why the 'experiment' couldn't be done in the UK but to continue to pretend that the technology of incubators, tube feeding fortified formulas as the default, should be held as the preferred treatment in the first world for babies after nearly 40 yrs of KMC research and experience elsewhere is, well, ignorant.

foxytocin · 16/09/2010 15:48

sorry, in ending I would like to turn your statement on its head and say that KMC in the UK is vital and incubators etc is beneficial.

EdgarAllInPink · 16/09/2010 16:48

my Grandma worked in a premmies ward where the nurses practiced a form of kangaroo care (in the UK) - picking up and cuddling the babies whenever possible..they had an excellent success rate. that was in 1930....

hildathebuilder · 16/09/2010 17:13

foxy I hear what you are saying, but in the UK incubators have many many advantages which kangaroo care may not do. It is in fact very difficult in most cases and dangerous in others to hold a baby to do kangaroo care when they are say 23 or 24 weeks. Do remember that these days prem babies can be as little as 23 + weeks old and 500g. Those babies are very very fragile and it is the technology which keeps them alive.

BertieBotts · 16/09/2010 18:37

I am very strongly pro kangaroo care. I don't know enough about premature birth to say whether it would be a good idea at 23/24 weeks, I'd be interested to hear though what advantages an incubator would have, as my understanding is that feeding tubes, pulse monitors etc can all be attached while practising KMC, and the mothers' body regulates the infant's temperature in fact more efficiently than an incubator.

But as I said I don't know a lot about premature birth, so I'm guessing that such little babies will have additional requirements?

sheba1 · 16/09/2010 18:47

As someone who really did want to bf, I found that the presence or absence of advertising for ff was irrelevent. What nearly did put me off was the lack of support and realistic advice that there is for people who are struggling.

Very few of the pro bf HCP I came across and asked for help said anything other than "carry on you're doing fine" when I was having real problems with recurrent mastitis. Our town has one breastfeeding specialist midwife, and she was much more helpful, but obviously can't see everyone with problems. What I did need was some one to one help with latching on.

I think that a lot of the political spin regarding bf is not helping people to make sensible decisions. What I read in books and heard at ante natal classes made me think I could expect bf to be relatively straightforward or at least not have me in tears of pain and frustration. So when I had totally mangled nipples after 4 days of not latching on properly I was really depressed and felt like a total failure. It was only when I looked at the forum on here that I realised that I am far from alone.

I am still bf, but totally understand why many people in my position have stopped and it's got nothing to do with ff companies sponsorship.

jemjabella · 16/09/2010 18:50

sheba1 - and do you think midwives being given biased and inaccurate information by formula companies will help?

--

Mike Brady from BMA has published his thoughts on it: info.babymilkaction.org/news/campaignblog160910

sungirltan · 16/09/2010 19:11

yanbu.

formula companies make me sick. i just dont think aptimil/danone is an appropriate sponsor of a baby charity. i'm not formula bashing as such, i just think sponsors should be neutral on contentious child rearing issues.

off to read politics of breastfeeding

sungirltan · 16/09/2010 19:18

mrsgordon - no, bf is bloody hard work. its easier for osme than others and i dont just mean the initial latch/spupply/etc. long term bf is hard effing work. even if its totally painless there is there is at the very least not being able to have much of a break from the baby - because not all babies will drink from a bottle/not all mothers are able to express a great deal.

i am nearly at 12 months of bf dd. i dont want a medal or anything but i'd be a lying cow if i said it was all easy peasy because it wasn't. i aimed for 6 months and when we got to that i just carried on but the first 6 months were tiring, painful, messy and frsutrating (not getting a break).

any bf out there who sailed through it without a cracked nipple in sight i think you are v lucky but you are doing the rest of us a disservice by claiming it should always be a walk in the park.

rant over :-)

foxytocin · 16/09/2010 19:23

I also don't know enough about 23/24 wk babies but i do remember a piece on R4 a yr or 2 ago talking to the mum of the youngest baby to survive prematurity then. a 22 or 23 baby. the policy was to not give any medical treatment due to his extreme prematurity.

she was given this baby to hold whom they expected to die. she kept holding the baby abd the baby kept breathing for hours after the hcps expected him to die. over 12 hrs later a meeting was called as to whether it was still ethical to withhold medical care from this baby who was refusing to die.

from a sample of one, it seems that kmc could still be extremely vital. i am not contradicting that incubators don't have their place but i'd like to think that the mother's body is the environment best suited from where these infants can fight their battle for life.

mrsgordonfreeman · 16/09/2010 22:37

Ah, if only I had had plain sailing from the start. I just mean that it's easier in terms of not having to prepare bottles and so forth.

DD is 10 months now so I know what you mean, but whenever I think that, I also think about how well she's doing and how much money I haven't spent on Aptamil.

hildathebuilder · 17/09/2010 09:04

the things I now think rereading a lot of this thread are that:

  1. I am sending a donation to Tommy's to support their research.
  2. there is not enough research done on KMC/Incubators/prematurity
  3. It was unfortunate that in taking the money from Aptamil Tommy's courted this controversy, and I hope that it won't put peoeple off giving them money, but if it does I doubt they will lose as much money as Aptamil presumably gave.
  4. I am glad this thread was started, even though I am in a minority on it as it has caused me to think furtehr and I believe it may have caused others to.
  5. I very much hope that none of us here has to go through the trauma of a (further) miscarriage/stillborth/premature delivery but if we do that there is more knowledge and in the case of premature delivery there is better support out there including for BF when that is what the mothers wish to do, but that the high calorie formuals also continue to improve.
  6. That BF support gets better (its excellent in my area and we do have BF culture around where I live so I do not recognise a lot of other peoples experiences. Its just a shame this is not universal accross the UK)
sungirltan · 17/09/2010 12:23

mrsg - yes quite :-) aptimil wont be getting any of my money either, thankfully. i did take the free polar bear though! suckers

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