baby doesnt want the boob!

[Emski10]

hello!

i started topping up with formula when bubs was 10 days old (hrs now 3 weeks and 3 days) on the advice of the midwife as he was always hungry and fell asleep after 20 min on the breast, would wake up ten min later and be hungry, i ended up feeding him for something like 3 hrs and it still wasnt enough. now im breast feeding - or attempting to- at every feed but still having to give him 4-5oz of formula every other feed as he is still so hungry. however now he is getting frustrated on the breast resulting in scratvhing me, head butting my breast and pulling his head back while still latched on! i think he prefers the bottle as its quicker, how can i avoid going completely over to bottles and formula? i do express but even thats not enough for him and trying to breastfeed, express and make bottles up is becoming hard work! any advice greatly appreciated

em

Hi emski

I'm no expert, but if you want to avoid going over to bottles completely you're going to have to work on upping your supply. The best way to do that is simply offer the boob as often as you can and resist topping up with formula. breastfeeding works on a supply and demand basis, so you may just have to take to your bed for a couple of days and feed continually!

Hopefully someone a bot more qualified will be alone soon to offer you more advice.

Good luck and congratulations!

Not very good advice from your midwife I'm afraid. The formula has taken over and reduced your supply, resulting in him messing about on the breast. If you stop giving formula, then you will have a tough day or two as he sucks like mad, but that will get your supply back up. If you still want to top up, perhaps once you get breastfeeding well established again, then you could just top up last thing at night with expressed milk or formula.

Emski - what a shame the midwife wasn't capable of supporting you better :( :(

From what you say, his behaviour at 10 days old was normal - that is exactly the pattern you'd expect at this age, it's very typical indeed.

4-5 oz at every other feed is a lot of formula, and it would not be sensible or safe to simply stop giving it. Instead, is there someone you can contact to help you work out a way of winding down the formula while at the same time you work on making bf better and more effective? At the moment, you are feeding in the most difficult, time-consuming way (attempted breast, expressing, formula) - and it is (as far as I can see) solely down to the midwife's poor support and advice :(

You need a breastfeeding counsellor, or a (good) midwife, or a (good) health visitor or a breastfeeding specialist (not a peer supporter - they are great but not for difficult situations like this which need more input on the technical side)...you need a proper plan and it needs to start asap :)

thanks for all the advice ladies, i could kill that midwife lol! am thinking of giving the NCT a ring and see if they have breast feeding counsellors, anyone have any experience of NCT?

Helplines here:

www.mumsnet.com/babies/breastfeeding - scroll down.

I am an NCT breastfeeding counsellor, so yes, we do exist :)

Don't kill the midwife (I think it's illegal, isn't it? :) ).

Instead, write and complain.

Sorry to hear about your crappy support - all too common a story alas. But glad you've found MN and gone stright to the top with Tiktok!

The NCT may have someone local to you. Also try La Leche League and ring the delivery unit of your local hospital and ask if they have a breastfeeding counsellor or specialist breastfeeding midwife who can come out to you.

You also may have a local breastfeeding peer supporters group you can go along to and they will also know of all other local support available.

Website Kellymom.com has some excellent reading and videos too.

Keep going with the BF - you're doing the very best for your baby. Make sure you always offer the breast at night as this is when a lot of prolactin is produced by your body, the hormone that regulates supply.

thanks tiktok i'll be calling!

Lastyearsmodel - funnily enough all his night feeds are breastfed and he takes them perfectly, 30min every 3 hours from 8pm and out like a light straight after, its during the day that he gets so stressed on the booby, although saying that i have just spent an hour in bed with him feeding and he seems satisfied! (well he's asleep lol) i shall keep persevering with it never fear, i want him to have the best start, i'll have to go back to work in 8months and knowing i've done the best by him might lessen the guilt!

I take it back - he's now on the other side :( how can I tell when he's full? He nursed for a full hour a dropped off only to wake up ten min later hungry for more?

hi emski, well done for persevering in spite of the poor advice you have recieved. Ime you'll know when he's had enough because he'll come off the breast. He may be asleep, or awake. He may need to feed again shortly after, but rest assured it's early days and it won't be long before he goes longer between feeds.

You mention him feeding "perfectly" at night, and refer to the timing and length of feeds. Just to clarify with bf there is no set time between feeds, or length of feed. Just offer if you think they (might) want it...they will regulate their intake. i know that you are using top ups at the mo but just thought i'd mention this if ebf is your aim. Don't worry, this doesn't mean you'll be feeding him constantly...some days my ds (6m) barely bothers, others he is hungrier. At least i know he his getting what he needs and i'm not worrying over the ounces that go down the plughole

Oh and If he keeps being lulled to sleep by the bf snuggle try gentley wake him by swapping sides or changing his nappy.

Hi Emski - you mentioned that you have expressed, do you do this regularly daily? As if so this should help boost supply. Although I am now just ff my nearly 6 month old (for various reasons I won't go into here!) my supply really increased when was bf when I expressed at night. I don't think my milk properly came in when dd was first born as she was in scbu for a while (stress etc..!) but when home and relaxed and expressed it increased.

I wish I could have spoken to someone who could have helped me gradually reduce the amount of ff/ ebm top up, as I understand this can be done. Apparently there are lactation consultants although I am not sure how you find them - sorry to be vague!

Good luck!

Emski, I agree that his behaviour sounds normal to me. Most likely he now has nipple confusion as your mw advised you to use bottle way too early. Bottle and breast feeding require v different styles of sucking; he needs to be established on breast for 3 weeks before starting bottle.

I doubt that he 'prefers' the bottle - breastfeeding is so much more snuggly. You have great advice on this thread, and please DO call the NCT, they are brilliant. Also go back to that mw one day (call her) and tell her how bad her advice was, she needs to know.

Re fullness - yes, he will regulate his own intake, so he knows when he's full. You'll learn to tell when he's satiated - though even then he may still fool you and ask for more once in a while. Bfing 'on cue' will become easier, it will take you time to get used to it so just go slowly and follow his lead.

Also, he is very little and will change a heck of a lot over the next couple of months, so don't worry about getting him into bad 'habits' at this stage.

Good luck and congrats on your lovely baby boy!

Hi, well done for keeping going despite some bad advice.

Whilst you are trying to increase your supply again you can try the herbal remedy "fenugreek". you can buy it in holland and barratt, and take up to 8 capsules a day. once you are settled into full time BF without formula you can slowly start reducing the amount you take and your body should take over. there is lots of info on it on the net, and I took it for about 6 months after my supply never picked up enough (following a premature birth)

good luck!

Emski - it is fine for him to feed for an hour, drop off and then want feeding again 10 mins later. This is normal behaviour when a baby is young, and it is good for your milk supply as it ensures it builds up to keep up with his needs.

It's easy to make the mistake of thinking a 'good feed' is defined only by the baby feeding within a short (but not too short) time, and then falling deeply asleep for 2-3 hours or more.

There is nothing wrong with that, either, but it is not the only way it happens :)

Re increasing supply, in case nobody's mentioned it, the main thing to do is just increase the regularity of feeding. Feed him more frequently (for these purposes, frequency is more important than the length of time spent on each feed) over a 24 hour period and you should find that does the trick. That advice comes from the awesome childbirth powerhouse Ina May Gaskin, and it worked for me!