Formula carton tastes nice, powder tastes awful - is that normal?

[MarineIguana]

I'm starting 5mo DD on mixed feeding in preparation for nursery (been advised not to express because of oversupply/mastitis probs). So tried several cartons to see what she liked, and she liked Sma (no idea what the general view is on Sma, so be gentle!)

I've got cartons for out and about but got a big tin of powder for at home. Made it up as instructed and tasted it to check temperature - and it mings! Plasticky and just wrong-tasting (even when I tried mixing it in a glass jug, so it's not the bottle). So I tried carton version - yum (tastes like weak condensed milk). The powdered one is so horrible I can't bring myself to give it to DD, but cartons are expensive obv.

Am I doing something wrong or has anyone else noticed this? And / or can you recommend an alternative powder?

No idea on formula questions but who told you not to express because of oversupply/mastitis?

yes its normal but for some reason my babies havent seemed to care what it tastes like. We have used sma and aptamil and to be honest to me they both tasted pretty awful!.

rainbow it was docs, bf counsellor and gp; I have been in hosp with mastitis and it was baaad - I know some on here will beg to differ but I am engorged enough (still at 5 months) and don't want to make it worse.

Thanks fernie!

The cartons and powder do taste different. They are also a different colour when made up (cartons are darker, more yellowy, powder is much whiter and (I think) thinner)so it's nothing you are doing! My baby has always taken the two exactly the same though. To be honest if you decide to go down the formula route I'd go with whatever formula agrees with your baby the best and not worry about what they taste like to you.

TBH I hated the smell so I never dared try to taste them.

They do look different due to the fact that the cartons are pasturised.

Do please be aware that formula powder is not sterile and needs to be made up with water which is at least 70 degrees C.

Here is some useful info about formula from UNICEF.

Dept of Health guidelines on making bottles.

In the above leaflet you will see various methods for making powder up in advance.

WHO guidelines.

Thanks, I'm reassured and will try giving it to her. Also for the guidelines - had been trying to follow the carton instructions but I didn't know you could make it up hotter, rather than having to wait the 30 mins for the kettle to cool. (Although it's such an almighty faff that I keep breastfeeding instead because I'm so busy - have to get organised... am sorely tempted to go cartons all the way )

We used SMA in cartons for the first few days after DS was born for convenience. When we started making up from tin DS wouldn't drink it. We eventually solved the problem by using half and half then graduay reducing the amount of carton in his bottle.
Also if using tinned give more cool boiled water to drink, for some reason it's more likely to cause constipation, although carton will prevent this.

rainbow, I am a breastfeeding counsellor and I can understand marine's decision not to express because of over-supply/mastitis issues. It would not be a great idea to express then be away from her baby for several hours...it would be ok if she had good expressing and storing facilities at work, though.

As has been said, the cartons are actually different - just like UHT milk tastes different from ordinary milk.

"but I didn't know you could make it up hotter, rather than having to wait the 30 mins for the kettle to cool" - sorry not sure what you mean - you should not make it much hotter than 70 degrees as you may destroy nutrients and lower than 70 degrees you may not kill any bacteria...

Please read the leaflet I linked to.

Just remember when you put the kettle on to make the bottles. By the time 30 minutes had passed I'd nearly always completetly forgotten, then had to boil more fresh water and wait!

A simple kitchen timer is a great idea for this reason!

tabouleh sorry about the confusion - the dept of health one says it has to be at least 70 degrees but doesn't say there's an upper limit. I'll check the others.

OK I've read them and can't find anything that says you can't use boiling water, just that it must be over 70 degrees so don't leave for more than 30 mins. Is this right? (It would be so much easier if I could just make it up after boiling the kettle... obviously you then have to make sure it's cool for using.)

tabouleh, I often see people saying that boiling water kills the nutrients, but notice that in the WHO guidelines it says,

"Data presented at the meeting on the reduction
in vitamin levels on reconstitution with boiling water showed that vitamin C is the only vitamin that is
significantly affected (reduction ranging from 5.6 to 65.6% in the four powders tested). However, to offset the
loss of vitamins during the shelf-life of the product, all dry formulas actually contained higher levels of vitamin C
than was labelled. After reconstituting with boiling water, three of the four formulas still contained higher levels
than labelled. The fourth, after a vitamin C reduction of 65.6%, contained 9.0 mg/100 calories. This level is
still greater than the minimum level of vitamin C (8 mg/100 calories) required by the Codex Standard for Infant Formula."

Also, there are certain 'special' formulas that have to be made with boiling water, otherwise they don't dissolve.

MarineIguana - ring the phone number on the side of your formula packet and they will tell you how to make it (but not why).

Yes - it might be "easier" but surely you want your baby to receive adequate nutrition? Unless you have researched the topic it is best to follow the instructions!

page 12 of the WHO leaflet says "Concerns have been raised over the use of very hot water for reconstituting PIF, but risk of E. sakazakii is only dramatically reduced when water at a temperature of no less than 70 °C is used (see Appendix 3)."

These concerns relate to degredation of nutrients etc.

^"Why must a thermometer be used to ensure the water is between 75°C and 70°C
before use? The higher the temperature of the water used to make PIF, the greater the degradation of essential nutrients. However, the water should be at a sufficiently high temperature to kill harmful bacteria. The use of a thermometer is the most accurate method to ensure that the most effective balance is achieved between these two risks.Water should never be used below 70°C."^ page 13 in Guidance Note 22 Irish FSA - see here. The Irish do the best leaflet IMO.

NB the use of thermometers is being discussed in relation to care settings/hospitals.

Have a look at the alternative methods of making and also realise that you can make in advance - but feed needs to be used within 2 hours.

If you have a thermometer you could experiment and see what volumes you need to make 70 degree water - so with boiling water and cooled boiled water - however you have a risk that the cooled boiled water contains bacteria etc.

Sorry this is better:

"Why should the boiling water not be used immediately but left to cool for 30 min?"

At high temperatures, some of the heat labile vitamins and other nutrients in the PIF will be destroyed.The higher the water temperature, the greater the amount of nutrient degradation.The choice of the best water temperature is a practical balance between a high enough temperature
to kill the harmful bacteria but a low enough temperature to retain sufficient amounts of nutrients. Ideally a clean thermometer should be used to ensure the boiled water is at 70°C. However, it is
unlikely that such equipment is available in a domestic setting. Consequently, a practical approach must be selected.The closer the temperature of the water is to 70°C the better. Hence, using the boiled water immediately will increase nutrient degradation and is not recommended. The 30
minute rule is recommended as a practical means of achieving water temperature between 80°C and 70°C without the need for a thermometer.

Taken from page 20 of the Irish guidance note.

sorry tabouleh, I don't actually use boiling water, I use water kept in a flask, I just wondered why it says in the section I quoted, it says that the degradation of nutrients is negligible.

So do you think that this method is ok-

to make 4 oz formula

70 degree water kept in flask

pour 2oz of flask water into sterilised bottle

add 4 scoops of formula and shake

add 2oz of cooled boiled water kept in fridge

shake again.

Thanks - there still seem to be some contradictions going on between various sources but it does look as if it has to be 70-80 degrees. I can't imagine why anyone who can breastfeed would choose to go through all this! Case for cartons is getting stronger by the minute.

Hazeyjane - re nutrient loss - the para you quoted is talking about vitamins - obviously there are loads of ingredients in formula and I don't know of any tests there have been to show that using boiling water is safe and when WHO and the formula companies are recommending 70 degrees then I would not want to take that risk.

My own opinion on using hot water to add to formula and then cold water is:

a) - it is not recommended - to me knowing that FF was not what I had planned/wanted - I needed for my own sanity to know that I was adding water at 70 degrees and using a recognised method

b) I am not convinced that adding a smaller volume of water to the powder would have the same effect of ensuring bacteria is killed - this is because you can't assume that it is enough liquid to dissolve the powder properly.

It would be good to see some research on that method.

My personal opinion (and what I would do if I was FF again is):

First few months - ready to feed cartons or if costing too much - ready to feed in the night and out and about and bottles made fresh each time (remembering that you can make slightly in advance as long as they are used within 2 hours) - a stock of ready to feed in case an unanticipated feed is required.

Next few months - start making up 2 or 3 bottles at a time - cooling rapidly and storing in a fridge at 4 degrees C and warming in a jug of hot water.

MarineIguana "I can't imagine why anyone who can breastfeed would choose to go through all this!" - I know it is such a marketing con that formula is sold as an easy-peasy safe choice. .