Sainsbury's breaking the code??

[Tissy]

Suedonim (or anyone else who knows ), I saw some C+G infant formula (not follow-on) on Special Offer in Sainsbury's today. It was under a banner that sais "Special Offer", but the price ticket said "clearance line". The sell-by date (or use-by date, I can't remember) was January 2005. I had a look at the baby milk action website, and it said that the baby milk companies can't promote the sale at a reduced price, but I couldn't find a specific reference to the Supermarkets- are they allowed to do this?

Tissy there was a discussion about it here HTH

The law applies to distributors as well, tissy - and yes, from what you say, they are breaking the law. Permanently discounted milks are ok; it's promotional offers that are not. Call your local trading standards and tell them.

Well, couldn't get trading standards on a Sunday, not surprisingly, but managed to speak to the store manager. Quoted her the relevant bit of the statute (thanks for that link, pie)and she said that paragraph 19 (d) did not refer to "clearance", so does not apply. Para 19 (b) does however say

19. No person shall at any place where any infant formula is sold by retail? (b) make any special display of an infant formula designed to promote sales;

and I think that a huge red and white special Offer sign counts as as special display. Hmm...

she is going to contact their legal dept tomorrow and get back to me, I'll wait and see what they say, and contact Trading Standards if they don't admit their mistake!

It is ILLEGAL!

Which Sainsbury is it ???? I'll have a look at mine tomorrow. Friends are now in a battke with both Tescos and Lloyds chemist on the exact same issue ! And TS agree they are in the wrong.

Pupuce, it is Sainsbury's in Darnley near Glasgow, but the store manager gave me to understand that pricing policies are made centrally.

HTH

I am not trying to stir up trouble or argue for the sake of it but don?t really see what the big deal is all about. No-one questions promotions on other products such as alcohol, "unhealthy" foods such as sugary drinks, biscuits, ice cream etc. - and why? because we are not a nanny state and don?t need over bearing legislation ruling our lives for us. I know all about the pressures of bf and temptations of bottle feeding etc. and to think that women will be swayed just by 10p off a carton of milk is quite insulting in my book. I agree that it is not on to give new mums free samples as this could very well be leading to possible problems but it is my humble opinion that this is one step too far - and penalises all those out there who do use formula.
I just don?t get why so many of you are so upset and wound up about this one - there are loads of great battles out there and this one seems a bit unnecessary. I don?t think breaking the law is right, but if the law changed, I wouldn?t be upset about it either. Is there really loads of babies out there at the terrible risk of their mums stopping bf just like that thanks to a few stores? special offers on formula??? If there are mums out there so easily swayed to make major decisions on such a whimsical financial consideration then God help those chidlren anyway - will they be given only cheap ice cream and 2 for the price of 1 chocolate cake for their dinner when weaned because it was "on offer"??. Ok - will stop going on now, humbly step down, put my crash helmet on and wait for the backlash....

Tissy, definately go for it, I have had to complain about my local ASDA twice now, once on the thread pie has provided the link to and once again a few days later. Here in Scotland it is the Environmental Health that deal with this issue also Babymilk in Action are very interested to hear of cases of any violation in this law and have a form to be filled in on their website as they are compiling some figures on this.

StripyMouse, I do think it is an important issue, perhaps someone more educated on the subject could explain better than myself but I will give it a go. I will try and explain why I complained. If a mum makes a decision to b/feed and is having difficulties (I know how this feels as b/feeding DS1 was awful and I used to go into a panic when I knew ASDA was shut and I wouldn't be able to get any formula if I found I couldn't do it anymore in the middle of the night) and has a carton/tub of formula in front of her with money off then I think it would be tempting to buy it and for many women this is the thin end of the wedge and as we see so many times the mum didn't want to give up b/f but it just sort of slips away with the introduction of more bottles (talking from personal experience here). Also a pregnant woman may look and see reduced formula and may base her decision to bottle feed on being able to get formula on special offer or reduced as soom people's reasons for b/feeding are financial. Also if we allow formula manufacturers to promote babymilk I'm sure more would be swayed and perhaps wouldn't even try b/feeding (I am also against Follow-on milks as the companies are just using a loophole here, but this is a personal thing not law). The mums you talk about who are easily swayed may not be as well educated or have as many opportunities as us (ie Mumsnet etc) so why should they suffer. Afterall we all foot the bill through our taxes for bottle feeding, mums on benefits who get free formula, babies who have alergies and get special milks free on prescription and then the cost to the NHS to treat conditions that may have been prevented by breastfeeding. Perhaps it seems a bit weak to say you can't knock a quid or so off a bashed tin of formula, someone gets a bargain, shop manages to sell off damaged stock but it may have longterm effects for someone.

I am sure I have rambled and I just want to add that I do believe breast is best but I am not anti-formula, I was formula fed myself and my DS1 was mixed fed from 5 weeks and formula fed from 16 weeks (although I have alot of sadness about this).

Not a backlash, but a clarification! The laws about promotion of infant formula in the UK are to protect all mothers' and babies' choices. The choice of whether to use formula or not - which, unlike cakes and biscuits, forms the sole source of nutrition for the most vulnerable sector of the population - is one parents should be free to make, uncluttered by commercial considerations or pressures. If a mother decides to use a brand of formula, she needs to know what price it is going to be from one week to the next, to make a fully informed choice, knowing the impact on her family budget. This is why permanent discounts are not illegal, but special offers are.

Having controls over the promotion and marketing of formula milk (and the UK law doesn't go far enough IMHO) does also do something to protect a mother's choice to breastfeed. No one benefits financially (apart from the health service) if mothers breastfeed. It is in no one's commercial interests if more women breastfeed. So a little bit of control over the way formula is marketed goes a little way to preserve this important area of infant health being scrapped over by people whose agendas are to make profits for their share holders. Now, there is nothing wrong making money for your share holders, but just as we have marketing controls over alcohol, cigarettes, fireworks, videos, medicines and other items, we have them over formula milk. We are, in effect, saying there are more important things than your profits.

Please don't think that marketing makes no difference to people's choices. In the US, where there are no marketing restrictions on formula milk, the manufacturers advertise widely, give away cartons of freebies to every new mother, and generally push in a way which would look very odd to us.

I don't think it's insulting to think that mothers would be influenced by money off or special offers. Why wouldn't they be? You are assuming that everyone breastfeeds out of conviction and sticks to their decision no matter what. In this society, women need supporting for breastfeeding, as it is not necessarily easy to do.

if i was still breastfeeding, and was happily still doing it, then even 90% off formula wouldnt tempt me!!!!

free breast milk verus formula milk that tastes like carboard.

i wish i could've carried on longer, but now its formula for my kid for now (not follow on, totally unnesscery). but carry on fighting the battle. some women need encouragement to even try breastfeeding.

tiktok, that't what I was trying to say! You have put it far more eloquently that I did!

For me this highlights two main issues. Firstly that formula milk is obviously highly profitable to both retailer and manufacturer, and therefore overpriced and exploitative of the consumer (who is after all a fairly captive audience). Secondly that big retailers are prepared to flount a law which is already anomalous (is that the right word ?!). There are not the same advertising constraints for Follow on milks which IMO are primarily used to promote the Brand name associated with Infant milks rather than for a nutritional merit of their own.

The Store Manager is probably correct when saying prices are determined centrally but I believe he is still responsible for ensuring the law is adhered to in his store and is the one who could be prosecuted by TS. Look forward with interest to Sainsbury's response.

Tissy,

Just a thought, as I assume they haven't got back to you yet, but if you are going to report it to TS do so asap as I think they may have to see the offer in situ to take action. If you leave it until this pm then, having spent the morning fretting about their sales figures, the Head Office will have had time to withdraw it if they see fit.

I do get your points - thanks for making the issues clearer to me. The point about it not being a commercial incentive for mothers to breastfeed and so the law is there to protect mothers? rights and "address" this imbalance had not really crossed my mind. However, with all the constant pro bf press, numerous leaflets, posters articles etc. going on and on about the benefits of breastfeeding over formula makes me wonder if this is really a valid argument. Reading some of the other threads about how those mothers who have made the difficult decision to stop bf and have found the lack of advice around about correct formula feeding, the huge amount of preceived and/or real negative reactions towards them making them feel even more guilty and worried makes me wonder whether there is such a huge imbalance out there? I stopped bf earlier than I would have ideally liked for a many variety of reasons - it had nothing to do with financial incentives or media/advertising. If anything I found it hard to find articles or advice about what brand/how much, when etc. to bottle feed - unlike the several trees worth of leaflets I had been given about bf. Instead I experienced animosity, negative and condescending "lectures" from midwives, constantly repeating the virtues of bf as if I were an idiot, complete strangers tutting when feeding from a bottle in public places, you name it, I got it. Even having tins of formula in my shopping trolly made me feel furtive and guilty....The idea that I could have stopped bf through misleading adverts and financial issues in a supermarket is just crazy - but i realise this is a personal stance. Maybe my experience is unusual and there are women out there who could be persuaded through such clever advertising "cons" and are oblivious to all of the pro bf pressure/encouragement out there. Got to say that I am glad Britain isn?t extreme like America with free samples bombarding us, just think that we have gone too far the other way.

I breast fed for 3 months but had a can of formula in the cupboard from week 2 which my husband bought home following a very weepy phone call from me over the 24 hours I'd gone without sleep! (Seems so daft now). However, my determination to breast feed was strong enough for me not to resort to using it. However, now I am formula feeding and have received (and used) coupons from SMA, Farleys and Cow and Gate for money off formula and recently took advantage of the two for £10 offer from Sainsburys and Boots. In fact I stocked up for the next six months. Sorry, if that makes me an advocator of something terrible, but if I can save money, I will

Knowing the Sainsbury's in Darnley and some of the areas it serves, coupled with the extremely poor breast feeding rate in the West of Scotland (which is highly post code related), it is all the more important that you DO make a stand Tissy! Let us know how you get on.

I'd also like to add that when I was going thru a really bad time at two to three weeks of breastfeeding (with mastitis, cracked nipples etc) I rang the SMA Careline for advice on their product and I was encouraged to continue breastfeeding and referred to the LaLeche league so that's one up for them I think!

StripyMouse, I think it's important to separate out the issues you raise: I totally agree that mothers who formula feed should not be criticised, and support and information about brands and preparation should be available to them, to help them formula feed safely and confidently. That is quite, quite different from allowing manufacturers a marketing free-for-all.

I bet you don't think that advertising and special offers on products is an information-sharing exercise.....I bet you are aware that marketing has one underlying purpose - to get you to buy a product you might not otherwise buy.

Banning a marketing free-for-all does not mean banning the free flow of information about formula feeding from health professionals.

Stipeymouse, you wonder whether the "constant pro bf press, numerous leaflets, posters articles etc. going on and on about the benefits of breastfeeding over formula" makes the arguments about advertising formula etc invalid - can you imagine the huge imbalance if advertising formula had the full financial backing of the manufacturer?! Breastfeeding promotion, with no such financial backing, could not possibly compete with that. It's that imbalance that the rules are there to protect against. It may seem to be imbalanced in the opposite direction but if you consider the "sneaky" advertising through follow on milks and weaning foods which all get the brand name into the minds of mothers, the imbalance isn't quite so clear.

CarolLouise, I'm confised about the offers you mention - I was under the impression that money off coupons and multibuys were definite no-nos unless they were for follow on milks which are not classified as a "breast milk substitute" since they are for 6 months up.

Tissy - here is the answer to your original post, cut and pasted from info I have been sent after SMA being prosecuted today.

Free and Subsidised Supplies of Infant Formula

In 1988 negotiations between the Government, health authorities and infant formula manufacturers resulted in an agreement that infant formula manufacturers would discontinue the supply of both free samples for distribution to mothers and subsidised infant formula for use within the NHS, and that health authorities would not accept them.
This voluntary agreement has now been enshrined in statute by Regulation 20 of the Infant Formula and Follow-on Formula Regulations 1995 (SI 1995 No 77). This prohibits infant formula manufacturers and their distributors from providing for promotional purposes any infant formula free or at a reduced or discounted price (or any gift designed to promote the sale of an infant formula) to, amongst others, pregnant women, mothers and their families either directly or indirectly through the health care system or health workers. It is an offence for an infant formula manufacturer or distributor to provide such a promotional gift.

This is the statement re prosecution:-

SMA convicted of illegally advertising baby milk

On 31 July 2003 at Birmingham District Magistrates Court, SMA Nutrition's parent company Wyeth was found guilty of illegally advertising SMA baby milk in UK parenting magazines.

Fining Wyeth/SMA £26,000 plus £34,808 costs, the judge concluded that "the defendants have deliberately 'crossed the line' in an effort to advertise direct to a vulnerable section of society. This is a cynical and deliberate breach of the regulations." He found that Wyeth/SMA had not exercised due diligence and that their Director had been "extra-ordinarily evasive throughout his cross-examination".

During the case, Wyeth/SMA challenged the UK Government's right to regulate the marketing of artificial baby milks. The case effectively outlaws similar advertisements by the other manufacturers active in the UK, whose promotions were also examined by the court.

Thanks, mears, I have had an Email from the Darnley Manager to say she's withdrawn the discounted milk pending further clarification. I'll mail her again and makes sure she knows I'll be watching- she doesn't know I only make it up to Darnley once a month or so, for all she knows I could be on the doorstep!