1 day old and struggling already!

[biggest]

DD (DC2) arrived in the early hours of yesterday - 8lb 15 and pretty straightforward delivery. She latched fine and had what could only be described as a ferocious sucking technique! From then she has rooted constantly and will only settle when on breast.
My milk not in yet and even if it was her latch is now so painful (she chews my nipple and doesn't extend her tongue) I doubt she would get any.
Lots of poo which masks whether she is wetting, but I just know she isn't satisfied as her technique isn't working and my nipples are already misshapen.
I swore I would not be precious about bf this time after many tears with DS until it clicked after 4 months - but I would like to give DD a chance before resorting to top ups
Any advice?

Congratulations
Is she tongue tied?
Are you out of hospital?
Is your MW visiting?

yes we are home, no midwives yet expect them tomorrow-ish. i haven't checked her tongue, she has settled for first time in 24 hours so I am letting her be and having a cuppa!

biggest - lovely to be home already

You need to see a midwife TODAY - you are in pain and finding your confidence is a bit wobbly, and this means you need help now.

It is good she is on the breast a lot, excellent she only settles when she is there. This means she is a normal, healthy, delightful, newborn who is doing normal, healthy, delightful things to help her adjust and accustom herself to life 'on the outside'. Breastfeeding is not about calories or satisfying hunger or thirst on day one - it is about making those vital, loving connections with you.

Unless you have a medical reason to give her formula at this stage, it would be crazy to mess about with breastfeeding initiation to top up....but the midwife should tell you this, when you call and insist on a visit today

Hi tiktok, midwife came today and said I had a "textbook latcch" - just feels like feeding through razor blades then! I will persevere until milk comes in and see if DD relaxes her jaws a bit then - so ferocious at the minute.....
Will prob check out some bf clinics locally too - won't give up yet!

I deeply disagree with your midwife and always feel v. cross when I hear this not-uncommon scenario.

I don't care if it looks 'textbook'. What does it matter what it looks like? It's what it feels like that counts. There is nothing in the textbook that says babies should cause serious pain to their mothers while feeding.

So she's left you in a state where you feel your baby is feeding with razor blades?

With no suggestions on what to do except carry on gritting your teeth?

That is an utter disgrace

Have you got some Lansinoh cream? I found that letting my nipples air dry and then rubbing a little on and then leaving them out as much as possible was really helpful between feeds.

DS2 has an industrial vacuum type suck, it gets better.

Biggest - My two DD's had a 'ferocious' suck too and it would take my breath away and bring me to tears, it got a lot better when my milk came in. Sadly, by that time there wasn't much left of my nipples!!

Send someone out for Jelonet, a couple of ££ from a pharmacy, and put it over your nipples with a dollop of lansinoh after feeding, it was my saviour.

Can you get a BF counsellor to see you, to give a second opinion on your latch??

Hello, this sounds like my DS2, like a little piranha! I really felt he had a great latch too, like your midwife suggested, but it was a bit over-enthusiastic I think, hence the pain.

Lots of sucking is great though - it will get your milk in super-quick this time round.

In the meantime, don't be scared to break the latch and reposition her if it feels totallly awful - screaming in protest leads to more open mouth leads to more comfortable latch in my experience! And I found that feeding lying down on my side helped the very most of all. Four months on and he's still painful when lying on a cushion on my lap, no pain at all when lying down, though no visual difference in the latch at all.

What morloth said. I had an agonising few days with ds2, and the lansinoh really helped.

If you nipples are misshapen, your latch is not correct. They should look the same before and after a feed. Try altering your positioning. Have you tried rugby ball hold? Try to avoid having same sore part of nipple being irritated. It may just be a minor adjustment that needs to be made. Phone and ask for midwife visit in the morning. This makes me angry too Tiktok.

my little one had a terrific suck on her too, I dreaded putting her on the breast and had to use the breathing techniques to quell the pain..

finally stopped putting her on after 4 days when blood was around her mouth from my breast then went on to expressing the milk which was much more comfortable for me (1 was in tears by now every time it was time to feed) i fed her by expressing for 6 months and could then share this pleasure of feeding with my husband and could ensure that she was feeding properly and getting enough milk.

don't continue in pain, express it and use an electric pump rather than manual it is much easier (felt that I had RSI after a week of manually expressing!) you might feel like a milk cow but oh boy was it easier

I'm no expert (except in experiencing agonising breastfeeding from barracuda babies). But I am also very suspicious of the "textbook" latch assessment. I was told that about my DS when I spent the entirety of every feed on the verge of tears, and much of the time between feeds as well (in anticipation). With my DD I had similar problems and was told the same thing - textbook latch - until I drew back my breast to reveal DD chewing on my nipple as I thought. Trust yourself and go by how it feels. Conversely, some babies (eg my DD) feed perfectly well without ever achieving anything approaching a textbook latch.

DS had tongue tie btw, but it wasn't diagnosed until it was too late to save the breastfeeding. Do get that checked out.

The priority is fixing the latch - if that's wrong, no amount of cream will help!

You want DD to be getting a big big mouthful of breast, opening really wide before she latches on so the nipple is at the back of her mouth. She needs to have her whole body facing towards you so she's not having to turn her head. Also, you don't want her dragging the boob downwards so she should be raised up at the same level (e.g. lying on a cushion is one way to achieve this).

As porcupine and mears suggest you could try some different positions, you may hit on one that makes it easier to achieve the above. Also as stealthpolarbear says, someone should check for tongue tie as that is a common culprit behind painful latch.

Some good info here, but I do think someone else needs to see you - each and every one of the posts on the thread may be helpful but it is a challenge to work your way through each one without someone knowledgable to help you assess which is working best, and how to interpret what you're reading for you and your baby in your situation.

biggest, is there any chance of seeing a different, better midwife? Someone who can really think through what might be happening by looking, listening to you, and coming up with something practical to support and help you?

I do think you need someone actually there - I could come with another pile of suggestions that might work, or things to investigate, but it would just add to the 'work through' list

Agree with Tiktok. Till you can get someone to see you, here is a link to latching videos that are quite short. Might help

Congrats, biggest!

Your milk won't come in for another 2 days - have you forgotten since DC1? Don't worry about the amount of milk you're producing. If you ever feel it's depleting just get your baby on there lots - plenty of suckling will sort it out within 24 hours.

Re bfing, you need to see a properly trained bf counsellor. Re tonge tie, you need to see a mw (though a good bf counsellor will be able to look at this for you as well).

Good latching advice here (scroll down for resources section; click on Jack Newman videos link)

You will get there. It's only day 1 and there's always something that needs ironing out. Just persist, and take things slowly.

Good luck!

Tiktok/mears, I don't ever expect proper 'technical' advice from a midwife/health visitor based on past experience. I do think that breastfeeding advice no matter where the source is hugely dependant on so many personal, physical, emotional factors that even trained bf counsellors can be a bit 'tick box'.
A different midwife should be out today - DD seemed to be getting more milk last night (I could tell from her gulps!) but still sore. Best way to describe the shape of my nipples is like a slightly used lipstick! I know it is a latch problem, her mouth just seems so tiny!
Speedy, DS was fed by bottle in special care for a few days after being born so I never had that engorged milky thing going on, I went on to feed him for 14 months though so I know things can be fixed - but despite seeing a plethora of advisors, was a matter of good luck that we found a position that worked.
Thanks for advice everyone, great to hear reassuring stories that things can get better

Lipstick shaped nipples (more like a new lipstick, with one 'side' sort of flat) is classic indication of latch issue, just as you say. This is usually resolved by getting a deeper latch - but you may need skilled help in amending positioning and hold to achieve this.

Hope you see someone soon

Thanks tiktok - just looked at some videos and can't quite figure out how so much breast can get into one wee mouth!

biggest - have had similar experiences. Others on here know much more about bfing than I do, but what really worked with ds2 (who also gave me lipstick nipples initially) was latching him on and then gently pulling out his lower lip, so that it was really sticking out, then doing the same with the upper one.

Completely changed everything.

I had that razor blade feeling - all HV/midwives and the BF counsellor told me DD had perfect latch & there was nothing wrong! So it was just me then So I suffered on - thankfully it was much more painful on right breast than left which was weird but ment I had some respite.

At 2 months I met with my StepMum for the first time (in another country) and she said straight away DD was mildly tounge tied & that was what caused the pain (she is MW 35 years & BF counsellor). I guess DD matured somewhat as around the same time the problems stopped & things got lots easier. But no other BF counsellor/MW had picked this up - they never even looked at DD's mouth/tounge.

I did find using the rugby ball hold when DD was on the right helped lesson the pain. I did lots of deep breathing.

Congratulations!!!! Hope you are feeling better soon.

Would lying back, baby lying parallel down your tummy help with that latch at all? (can't remember name- nurturing hold or something?)
I had serious problems bf DC2- but tongue-tie was diagnosed at 4 days, and it was sorted fairly promptly. My bf counsellor showed me this hold, and it made a massive difference to the pain levels.

Oh and sorry- Congratulations on your DD btw!

Thanks for all the advice, I am trying out some new moves today to see how we go. Definitely a shallow latch, I have self diagnosed!