How can I get my 3 week old to eat more enthusiastically?

[skippingturtle]

Hi All,
My 3 week old shows signs of being really hungry (chewing fists, headbutting the chest of whoever's holding her etc) but when I put her on the breast she runs out of steam really quickly. After a few big sucks she's doing more chewing than feeding.

I try to keep her going but a feed can take ages and I'm not convinced she eats much.

Any tips?

Is she qaining weight? Does she have plenty of wet and dirty nappies? How long does she go between feeds?

Do you know if there is a local Bfing Counsellor? I just think that you may be best having a chat with one and maybe they could take a look at you feeding your LO and see if everything is ok.

It can be normal for feeds to take a long time at that age - I remember sometimes spending as long feeding as I did having a break between times! I do definitely think you need to get proper advice though - either from local support or from one of the helplines.

Yeah, I can remember changing DDs nappy halfway through just so that it would wake her up a bit!

Yep, she's gaining weight, she regained her birth weight in 2 weeks and although she's moved down the centiles a bit the MW and HV are happy enough.

She has about 4 dirty nappies a day and a couple of ones in addition that are just wet.

Sometimes she goes for 4 hours between feeds if she's asleep, if awake the longest would be an hour and a half.

My midwife suggested I top up my BF with formula (i.e. I feed for as long as I can then give her some formula) to give me a bit of a break because I was really struggling emotionally with what was feeling like continual feeding. I've been doing this for 3 days, but not giving formula at every feed IYSWIM.

My baby sucks like mad at the bottle throughout the feed, and is the same at the start of a feed from me, but she then tails off really quickly into little sucks that don't seem to be drawing anything out. This makes me think she's finished, but of course as soon as I try to put her down she cries. Just to be clear, I'm BF first and then give her some formula.

Perhaps she just can't be rushed?

Sorry, should have said, have been told by MW that the latch is good, and she's been checked for tongue-tie.

Will go to BF group this week and see if they've any tips.

If she;s putting on weight, plenty of wet and dirty nappies and content between feeds then the feeding is going fine!
The "little sucks" may be more effective than you think.
I know it seems like continuous feeding and it's hard, but please stick with it as chances are it will get easier.
Please don't top up without discussing this further with an expert.

skipping it sounds like you're doing really well, congratulations!

I think it's really normal for a feed to take aaages at this stage, I remember DS taking 1-1.5 hours and then off for an hour and then back on again. The little sucks are working, and she needs to spend that time at your breast to stimulate your milk supply. Unfortunately topping up will work against that process so you may be making it harder for yourself in the long run, although I completely understand why you've done it - especially if advised by an HCP.

I would definitely go the BF group, they will be really supportive and there will be tons of people who have been/are going through exactly the same things that you are!
Hang in there, it's hard going to start with but it does get easier.

You are doing a fantastic job. Regaining her birth weight in 2 weeks is unusual for a bf baby and the amout of dirty nappies and space between feeds is good too.

Have you thought of topping up with Breastmilk instead of formula? Some women leak alot during feeds and find that collecting the milk in a breastshell, and then topping up with this works. Some don't leak this much but expressing, then topping up can work too.

The first few weeks are hard, but it will get easier very soon.

The bfing group sounds good, but I think that you should also discuss the advice you have been given, and how you are feeling with a Bfing Counsellor.

Don't forget, if those little sucks weren't working, she wouldn't be gaining weight

It's possible that the big sucks get your letdown going, and then the little sucks are just her not bothering doing much work, because she doesn't need to.

It does sound as if she is doing very well.

Adding formula now is very likely to reduce your supply - any feed the baby has from a bottle, will make your breasts + brain go 'oh, she's not that hungry, let's stop making so much milk'.

After saying that about topping up, I don't actually think that you do need to top up at all. Have a look at what Kellymom.com has to say.

Also, feeling overwhelmed is normal. I hardly left the house for the first few weeks. Be kind to yourself, use internet shopping, accept offers of help and forget about the housework. You have to recover from the birth and have a new baby to look after, its a lot to cope with but will start getting easier.

Yes, I agree topping up would just be creating more work for herself. It sounds as though breastfeeding is going exactly as it should and she's doing really well.

Hello everyone, thanks for your encouragement.

Afraid to say there was a middle of the night meltdown (me, not the baby ) involving lots of tears (me again). I think the issue is that I really don't enjoy breast feeding, and the longer it takes the more down I get. When I'm feeding her for what seems like an eternity of little sucks and dozing all I'm thinking is "if I were giving her this out of a bottle she'd be done in 10 minutes and I could go back to sleep". Perhaps that's an awful thing to say.

I've been successful at expressing with a hand pump, and am considering getting an electric one so perhaps her night feeds can still be breast milk but from a bottle. Would that be OK? We're lucky that the lovely baby is happy to take a bottle, dummies, breast shields and boobs, bless her.

I'm sorry but I don't know whether that would work out. You are unlikely to express as much as you feed her 'normally' and so your supply might dwindle - night feeds are the most important for maintaining supply. That said plenty of people exclusively express so it can be done.
Do you / have you considered co-sleeping? That way you can latch the baby on and doze, or at least even if you're not asleep you are lying down and resting. It can seem awkward to begin with but you soon get the hang of it, and independently it gets easier as the baby gets older too.

That said, it sounds like it's taking quite a toll on you and it might be that if you want to continue you need a combination of practical coping tips and a way of looking at it differently - to accept that in the early days bf can be almost a full time job. I really think talking with a breastfeeding counsellor would be useful. They can talk you through continuing to breastfeed, introducing expressed milk or any other options you want to consider.

Hi Stealth,

Yes, I do feel it's taking its toll, although perhaps I just need to man up a bit, if you see what I mean! Had a traumatic birth, the LO was in SCBU for 6 days plus I was finding BF very painful so I think I'm a bit wobbly!

Met a lovely BF counsellor before the birth so will go back to her for advice.

no manning up required - that sounds very hard. Glad you know a nice bfc to talk to - definitely a good idea.

skipping you've had a hard time, no doubt about it. Definitely go and talk to a bfc, they will be able to talk you through all the possible scenarios.

I can understand you wanting to use bottles at night, but as Stealth said the night feeds are the most important to regulate milk supply. The hormone prolactin regulates your milk supply during these early weeks and is produced in greatest quantities in the early hours of the morning (thanks Mother Nature!). When I had supply problems early on with DS, my bfc had me setting an alarm to wake up and express at 2am in addition to any feeds that DS woke for. It was absolute hell for about a week and then my body got the message and I was able to drop the expressing and just feed.
If you can grit your teeth and keep her at the breast as much as possible, then your supply will increase to meet your babies needs really quickly - in a matter of a couple of days. It will get easier at 4 weeks, and again at 6 weeks once she has got over those two growth spurts.

No manning up needed, you are doing brilliantly.

Skipping, did you know that bfing actually helps you to get back to sleep? One of my friends switched to formula so that her LO would sleep better. The result is her DD is still not sleeping and neither is she. She really regrets it as she just used to go back to sleep after a bf and now she is lying awake for hours.

You don't have to co-sleep to bf but many bfing Mums do find it easier as they can get more sleep. As long as you follow the guidelines it will be ok.

Did you manage to give the bfing counsellor a call yet?

Next time you are having a meltdown in the night you can always ring one of the Breastfeeding Helplines, some of them are 24 hours

I was gonna say, have you thought about co-sleeping? My 3 week old sounds very similar, and the only thing that gets me through the night is bringing her into bed - I lie on my side, latch her on and then go back to sleep.

It's a very personal choice and by all means give her a bottle if you want, but with DD1 I went down the route of topping up and expressing and it ended up being twice as hard as I spent my life either breastfeeding, expressing or making formula feeds, and I really regretted giving up. This time I'm trying to exclusively BF for as long as I can as I think it will be easier in the long run.

Good luck, it's tough I know x

Hello all,
Thanks again for your supportive messages, much appreciated. Feeling a little more positive, having eventually got the baby to sleep. Life's a lot easier when there's not a starving child headbutting my chest constantly!

Regarding co-sleeping, I'm not keen I'm afraid, there isn't much room in my bed as both me and my fella are chunky! We're also rather warm, and I'd be concerned about the baby overheating. That said, I am feeding the baby lying down on my side, and then return her to her moses basket when she's done.

Bless you Alibaba, setting your alarm at 2am, I had to do that whilst I was in hospital and the baby was in Special Care, it just feels WRONG doesn't it, to have the alarm go off at that time? (unless you're going on holiday! )

Have called the BFC, and left a message, I think she may be on holiday so I'm going to see if I can see the BF co-ordinator from the hospital. I've had problems with blistered, cracked and mis-shapen nipples after feeds, so I think that whilst lots of HCPs have said the latch is good there may be something going awry. I'm feeding with shields at the moment, which is the only way I've felt able to keep going.

Interesting what you say Squeezy about topping up turning into a logistical nightmare. I've been using ready-mixed cartons, but they're too expensive for long-term and I can totally see how mixing formula would be a headache to combine with expressing.

I think in an ideal world I would BF, with a small amount of expressing to cater for one-offs such as the baby going to Granny's for the afternoon. I just need to investigate ways of it being less painful and time consuming! And then patent my discovery and retire on the profits...

Ah skipping - the shields are what's making the feeding take so long! I used them for about 10 days for exactly the reason you did, and also that I had quite flat nipples which DS found hard to latch on to. Feeds took literally hours.

I really really encourage you to go and see a BF specialist, as they will be able to sort you out with coming off the shields and your DD feeding straight from the breast. I saw one 4 or 5 times over the course of 3 weeks and they transformed the experience of BFing for me. So much so that I am still feeding DS and he is almost 2.

It does sound like you may have some latch problems - look at a website called kellymom.com for info, and also try googling 'biological nurturing' for some interesting info, including videos on how to achieve a really good and comfortable latch. Again a BFC will be able to help you with this, sadly a lot of midwives do not actually have a great deal of knowledge/experience around BF so they may be wrong about the latch being ok.

Right, have left messages for the BFC and the co-ordinator at the hospital, both of which are on hols. Will investigate other groups. Can't really afford to see someone privately, the counsellor I met before the baby was born works privately but also runs a group, so I was hoping to avail of her expertise the cheaper way!

Alibaba, that's interesting about your feeds slowing down with the shields. It hadn't occurred to me that that would happen, I think BF was very new to me when I first used them so didn't have much of a track record to compare it to. Also I was so relieved that the pain was almost gone and that the baby was happy to take them that I probably wasn't as observant as I could have been.

Hopefully once I can get help with my technique I can come off the shields for good. I'm a bit too scared to try before then in case I do more damage and end up going round in circles.

Have looked at biological nurturing, which was what I had in mind for when my baby was first handed to me, but in reality I only got to hold her for about 10 seconds before she was whisked away to an incubator. I tried feeding semi-reclining yesterday, with the baby upright on my abdomen and she did seem to take to it OK, although she didn't seem as comfortable as in cradle hold. Will have another go.

I was wondering whether my baby was doing something strange with her tongue (or something else that can't be seen) during feeding. We were in hospital for 6 days, so got a lot of feeding advice from various MWs and nurses, none of whom could understand why it was so painful. Will let you know what happens when I see a specialist.

Skipping, bfing shouldn't hurt, if it does you need help straightaway.

Three good supportive organisations are:

ABM "Ring our counselling helpline on 08444 122 949 to speak to one of our fully trained Breastfeeding Counsellors" and take a look at their groups or their website

LLL Call 0845 120 2918 visit their website and their is a list of their groups here

NCT Breastfeeding Line - 0300 330 0771 8am?10pm, seven days a week or visit their website to find your local branch.

One or all of these may have a Bfing Counsellor close to you who will give confidential and free advice, and all their Counsellors will be fully trained.

Personally, I'd be wary of paying for Bfing advice anyway. There are a couple of women near to me who charge, have given themselves very offical sounding titles and have had no formal training whatsoever. Not all are like this obviously, but if you do wish to seek advice its always best to check their credentials.

Give them a call tonight, even if its just to stop me worrying about you

Paid-for BF advice is often rubbish, although Board-Certified International Lactation Consultants are maybe worth it.

I suspect all of the BF hotlines have more people on them in the evenings, as they are generally answered by volunteers, many of whom have day jobs.

I can't swear as to their quality, but this page has a good list of BF drops by region, in case any of them suit you.

Hi again,
Well, decided to brave it and feed without the shields, and managed ok. There's still some sensitivity but nothing like the pain I was having when there was damage. The baby sucked vigorously, the feed didn't go on forever and I felt like she was drawing milk well. She's now sleeping, well, like a baby.

Thanks for the details of groups, I'm going to try to get to one this week.

I feel more positive, thanks in no small part to you lovely laydees. Tonight's pain-free feed has boosted my confidence. Fingers crossed I can carry on without shields and tonight's feeds go well...

Good luck with tonights feeds then Skipping. Glad the feed went well and you are feeling more confident.

I think going to a group will help, just mixing with other Mums that are bfing has always helped me.