Harrow School - a diluted global brand?

[Mrspepperpot1979]

Our DS has been offered a place at Harrow, which of course is wonderful – it’s a school with an extraordinary heritage. However, we're beginning to wonder whether Harrow, perhaps more than any other UK public school, has now evolved into something quite different from what made it so unique.

One concern is the sheer scale of Harrow’s international cohort - particularly the large number of pupils from China. While cultural diversity is something to be celebrated, it feels as though the balance may have shifted too far. When comparing Harrow with schools like Eton or Radley (both of which have made a point of avoiding overseas franchises), the contrast is quite stark.

Harrow has opened a significant number of international schools abroad over the last few years - notably in China – and continues to expand in this direction. While one can appreciate the commercial rationale, one can’t help but question what this says about the school’s strategic focus. Has the essence of what Harrow was – a quintessentially British boarding school experience – been changed for the worse or better as a result?

A number of the traditions certainly remain: the Harrow Songs, Bill, the distinctive dress, Long Ducker etc. But if the pupil body is so heavily international and the school’s global brand is now arguably its driving force, are families still getting the same experience that once made Harrow unique?

I’d really value hearing from others – whether you have current boys there, or considered it but chose differently. How does this international cohort impact the school culture, does it cause division? Through, for example, a lack of cultural reference points and different cultural sporting interests - i.e Rugby and cricket.

Do others share these concerns, or do you see this evolution as a positive step for a 21st-century institution?

Yes, your DS left 3 yrs ago, attended for 5 yrs, our DS is to start in 2yrs = 10 yrs. A lot has changed in that time, whether you like it or not, hence the original post. Toodle pip.

I've followed this thread with curiosity (although without any personal interest in the question as my DS went elsewhere).
I've been left feeling rather glad not to have sent my DS to Harrow- and not because of the diluted brand.
Is it possible that one PP in particular is working undercover for Eton College?

Very interesting thread

OP: given your reservations about Harrow, which school’s do you think your DS will attend? (I presume he has other offers)

Yes, DS had unconditional offers from Harrow, Radley and Tonbridge.

DS goes to a state grammar that is about 80% British Asian. It is not great for friendships outside of school because in our experience, for whatever reason, the Asian kids don’t meet up on weekends to just hang out.

Whether this is because they don’t want their sons mixing with the white kids outside of school or they have large extended families so don’t feel the need, but it affects friendships. I wish I’d thought more about this and considered the comprehensive more.

My concern would be the lack of lasting friendships, both during school holidays and later life. Might feel a bit isolating.

My son finished there last year. It’s a fantastic school, really can’t praise it enough. I quite like the international aspect as these connections will be maintained all their lives. If I’m honest, boys gravitate to those who have similar interests and hobbies. Of 15 boys in his house from his year group, there was one Chinese, one Korean, two Indian and one Russian. His best friends weren’t even in his house-they were from his sports teams.

Thank you, @YourWildCoralLeader.

Are there any other recent parents or current parents that can also explain the breakdown in their boy’s house? [The last recent parent to post, @LesLavandes, was harangued with the implication that her experience (only three years ago) is out of date - I feared others would not post.] It would be helpful to get the insights of current parents or other recent parents so that us prospective parents can have a rounded view.

crisphead - I am sure Amissions would be happy to send you a breakdown. They are very helpful and it isn’t a school secret. Give them a call

Admissions (before I get told off about my spelling!)

My understanding of the current shell cohort in Newlands is that there are three international students and ten or eleven domestic students.

I don't think anyone was harangued. It was pointed out that going through the admissions process over 10 yrs ago would provide different evidence than doing so now, and the whole premise of the thread is what Harrow is and has become now, not then. You are right though to request direct, current evidence from current parents, ideally from shell or lower years, just as we have done and have presented here, although you seemed to have ignored that and formed an opposite view in any case. @LesLavandes (although I thought you were leaving the thread having thrown your toys out, but your unnecessary 'precious boys' jibe in) In our experience, whilst speaking directly/ in person with admissions may tell a willing parent exactly what they want to hear, it will not tell them what they perhaps need to hear. A parent will be told 1. 'Don't forget that an expat pupil will still be a UK pupil' and 2. 'We aim to stick to a stated 80/20 UK/ International ratio for your DS cohort'. Most unhelpful, as to many parents, point one makes point 2 less valid and the vagueness of the answers will completely skirt around the issue of the heavy reliance on Asian (Chinese) pupils in their numbers. It's not something that can be concealed. The bottom line is, as has been eluded to in a number of posts previously, including in responses to my posts, Harrow will suit a family that is completely at ease with what the school is, a school with a very international outlook, which is also played out in the very high International/Asian pupil body. One either sees that as a positive experience or not. Those that think the balance is wrong should perhaps look elsewhere and stop expecting to find anything different. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' answers, it's just a matter of what the school is or isnt.

India and China have a cumulative population of almost 3 billion people now. And both have thriving economies and a lot of increasingly rich people, some of whom really value education, including in some cases, a traditional British education.

In all likelihood, if all UK public schools were simply driven by results alone and fee income paid, I suspect they could fill their places with majority from these two countries alone. So they may make a conscious effort on how many to take (selecting not just based on academics but a wide range of criteria and what a student can bring to the table in other skills like socially, extracurricularly etc), but some schools obviously care less than others and some schools will want to up academic results and so they will take more. Isn’t Harrow doing a lot better academically now? At least that is what I heard. I think the school itself has always been a very good school.
Perhaps the entry criteria academically just got a bit more stringent? Could that be the case @Mrspepperpot1979?

Like I said, my DC go to London grammar schools and there are a lot of children from South East Asian backgrounds, many are very intelligent, especially at maths and their parents have high expectations and ambition. Not sure it is a bad thing. My DC are bright but more lazy and I find it difficult to push them too hard so the fact others work hard and are so driven rubs off well on my DC, and it has motivated them to work harder (they do want to do well, just with minimum effort). And some, in our case, come from quite challenging (financially) backgrounds and I have great admiration for their drive to elevate and succeed and work hard.

3 excellent schools. Well done to your DS.

Did you consider Eton at all?

It sounds like Eton could be a good fit in T erms of more domestic kids and proper full boarding, like like Harrow and Radley.

Tonbridge is more weekly boarding as many pupils live within 1.5 hours drive and go home on Saturday. Not the case at Harrow and Radley (nor Eton.)

If you didn’t apply to Eton, why not?

I’m interested because you seem incredibly thoughtful in terms of school choice and you’ve created the best thread on here since I can remember.

Also there are so many pro-Eton threads that I’m interested in the opposing view, especially when put eloquently.

@Araminta1003 All that maybe true about Sutton boys grammar schools (I assume that’s where you are taking about) but it’s also true that those schools have really changed their character over the last 15-20 years. They used to be super sporty with great rugby teams as well as being academic & they sent a lot of people to Oxbridge to do all kinds of subjects including classics, mod lang, English etc. The boys were from all kind of social backgrounds but they were all local to the borough and they made friends for life.

Now they have majority boys from Indian sub continent families (far more than represented in the local demographic because they travel from all over SE England) and the focus is academia (maths science compsci) and maybe a bit of music. Sport is weak and there’s much less socialising outside school because when kids aren’t on their long commutes, they are expected by their parents at home to be doing homework and being tu tored.

On one hand good for their parents, pushing them to pass the 11 plus and get into a very academic school with zero fees. On the other hand, it’s not the balanced experience that a lot of parents want for their kids.

I am sure the very best public schools are the same: they could fill up their whole classrooms with Chinese maths geniuses and they probably would if they had an admissions policy like grammar schools do but nobody wants that.

@ItalianWays - grammar schools have to admit based on an academic test, but Wilson‘s has football and music aptitude places now. I am not sure exactly how it works but I assume others could do similar and also start including language aptitude places - but the cost of it all (admissions wise) may be prohibitive. I don’t think many of the grammar schools themselves just push academics, many try to offer a wider experience. And the superselectives could choose to have more in-catchment places. Similar stuff applies here concept wise, including on the competing with other similar schools angle. All schools compete somewhat and it includes state schools and not just grammars.

It used to always be mainly Eton or Harrow and then suddenly Winchester popped in there more and more, so I just wondered if Harrow is deliberately focussing on upping its academic reputation. But it’s pure speculation.

Thank.you. Eton was not on our shortlist. We were concerned that it might better suit a very independent DS. It felt less appropriate for a DS who benefits from a more structured environment.

We also heard accounts from friends of academic results being displayed in pupil - ranked order on noticeboards. While some may see that as motivating, we felt it could be unnecessarily exposing for some boys. A friend who was there (albeit many years ago) still feels that this kind of environment contributed to their (all consuming), overly competitive mindset which they found difficult to shake. We dont though have sufficient recent evidence to make an informed judgement and this anecdotal evidence is likely outdated.

Of course, every boy is different, and many families have a very positive experience of Eton, particularly praising its pastoral care. It just didn’t feel quite the right fit for our DS.

However, we are not in a position to be able to speak with any direct experience or having done detailed, evidence based research in the same way as Harrow, Radley or Tonbridge.

Perhaps in hindsight, Eton should have been a candidate but, in truth, we were already registered at 4 strong schools (DS was also holding an offer from Marlborough, which we ultimately passed on) and we needed to maintain an element of focus. Not to mention the effort required from DS in having to navigate 4 competitive senior school assessment processes.

Thank you, very thoughtful and detailed, as per!

Your summation of Eton concords with my views.

So will you hold the offers for H,R and T for a couple of years before deciding?

Or will you go back to R or T soonish to accept? ( I presume H is not in the running if you absolutely had to make a decision now)

God such a racist thread.

"There are too many foreign students at my child's school".

How is this thread allowed to stand on here?

If you dont like the foreign students at harrow. Send your child somewhere else.

Oh no! Not "RACIST!" Perhaps you could also accuse this thread of being, "HARD RIGHT" or "SYSTEMICALLY BIGOTED," too.

Great news: all such terms have been tossed about with such abandon for years, that we are now entirely immune to them. Huzzah!

Mitara. I fully agree. There are plenty og ‘good’ schools. No point in sending your son to a school you have so many worries about.
I discussed this with my son today who left 3 years ago. He really enjoyed his years at the school. He laughed at the idea of a diluted Harrow. Yes, plenty of foreigners and it wasn’t an issue for my son.

OP. Instead of going on and on about problems that may affect your son if he passes common entrance, why not take one of his other offers? Tonbridge and Radley are fine. My son wasn’t interested in them

Yes, we have already rejected the Harrow offer, in part, although not entirely due to the cultural imbalances discussed in this thread.

If i write,

"I don't want to send my child to a school because there are too many foreigners there"

How can it be anything but racist?

What a silly, melodramatic post, made without having fully digested the content of the entire thread. I suggest you read all the responses before posting such nonsense.

When a parent is considering sending their child to a full boarding school, where they will be for the majority of their formative years, it is entirely appropriate to examine not just academics, but the overall culture and character of the school. That includes pupil mix, house dynamics, and whether the environment still reflects the ethos and experience the school is known for. Harrow have absolutely, specifically targeted a high academically achieving (particularly East Asian) cohort of pupils over a number of years, in order to improve its overall academic standing (league tables), whilst also attracting a significant international pupil mix from other regions. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous.

There is nothing wrong with that, when its done sympathetically to achieve a healthy but sympathetic balance of pupils from different cultures and backgrounds. In our opinion, however, and in the opinion of many others no doubt, the balance is not there currently and this is very off-putting for a number of families, including I might add, the international families themselves!

This is not about race or exclusion. It’s about whether the balance within certain houses or year groups has shifted so significantly that the full-boarding experience is being altered, something that many parents, quite rightly, want to understand before making a substantial financial and emotional commitment.

This thread exists so that people can ask those questions, share direct observations, and make informed decisions. If that makes some uncomfortable, then perhaps it’s worth reflecting on why. But trolling a legitimate discussion does nothing to help the transparency parents are seeking.

Harrow will remain a wonderful school, particularly for many parents and pupils who are not put off by the imbalance of UK/International pupils.

To your last point, we have already rejected the Harrow offer (in a specifc house), in large part, as a result of these issues. We know a number of other families that have done the same.

I completely disagree with you.

When you say there is too much of any nationality, it IS being racist.
Cop yourself on.

I work in a boarding school actually. I speak to parents all the time. None of them have ever asked me "how many asians are there in the school"

We have a lot of English students and we have a lot of international students.

I am shocked at your post.

We’ve already declined Harrow’s offer and accepted places elsewhere, so there is no “going on and on”. I’ve simply been responding to posts directed at me, not proactively rehashing anything.

Your experience, whilst valid, is historic. Schools evolve. You seem quite frustrated by that, just as we were.

I’ve shared our contemporaneous findings and moved on, as you indicated you had too, so I’m curious why you’re still contributing to a thread you seemed ready to step away from.