Social services help

[Neweverything25]

Asking for a friend... Just found out through a common friend that some friends of ours had their children taken by social services from school. They are all African living in England and we suspect racism and cultural misunderstanding are a play. Has anyone got experience of this and can advise on what they can do to get their children back please?

It would depend on the grounds SS have given for their children to be taken. What have they said the reason is? What evidence has been given?

Cultural misunderstanding of what exactly? What were the reasons given?

https://crossroadswomen.net/child-removal

Please encourage them to have a look at this.

Has the child disclosed something that would be culturally acceptable in their country of origin but illegal here?

Thanks for the replies, sory I don't know any more details yet, going later to visit the friend that told me but she has asked me nit to contact them directly so I hope she can tell me more when I see her later...

cultural misunderstanding are a play.

I suspect because smacking/physical punishment is more prevalent/ normalised in other cultures?

I don't know if that is the reason, I haven't witnessed it in their family but when we visited their country some years ago I did get that impression. I will hopefully find out later what reasons have been given and why she mentioned racism and cultural misunderstanding.

@Neweverything25

It would be in the parents' interests to seek the advice of a solicitor, OP.

https://solicitors.lawsociety.org.uk/

The parents should have been given a list of solicitors when the LA served the paperwork on them. The parents won’t need to pay for the solicitor.

why she mentioned racism and cultural misunderstanding.

Claiming culture misunderstanding and racism won't work if it's physical punishment of a child especially if it leaves marks.

It's been that way since the 1980s when I had school friends removed from home due to that reason. Luckily one of the senior teachers at my school was a coloured South African woman and if the parents followed her advice then their children were allowed home.

Since then I known other cases plus I have family members and friends who have intervened and reported. They are either teachers or work in paediatric health care.

Your friends would be best of getting advice on how to behaviour and what to say from such people. SS don't normally go for care orders in the first incidence as they cost loads of money. Also if other people known to the children can look after them they normally go for that as they don't have to give the carers any money.

Btw I had a run in with social workers due to someone lying about my DDs parentage. To cut a long story short as soon as I got sufficient information, went over their heads and emailed the right senior people they left us alone. However they wouldn't accept that the social workers were racist due to believing stereotypes of what a mixed ethnicity child should look like due to her grandparents nationalities.

Thanks for all the replies, I know a bit more although I am afraid it is a bit of a drip feed and second hand info but as far as I know there is no physical punishment. I've been told the school have been concerned since September and it is to do with discipline such as not allowing screen time and food restriction of one child who is overweight. Of course you never know what really happens behind close doors and how children relay things in school but they are concerned about discrimination as they are the only black family in the primary school in a not very ethnically diverse area.

Op, I get you want to help your friend but be aware you don't know the full story. Sometimes parents can act v differently behind closed doors. I'm not saying your friend is mistreating her children, most likely it is just a misunderstanding, and racism may well be involved. But I would not get too involved.

If it was a smack, I think taking the children away is v wrong, but otoh w abuse of children much in the news, people are probs extra careful. I personally think smacking is v wrong, & whilst it isn't abusive if it's just a one off, if it's allowed it gives opportunities for abuse to br excused bc of this grey area .
Slaps should not be leaving marks, that sounds v harsh.

Ah I see- op, this sounds v odd if that's the case, those sound like reasonable things to do. It sounds like your friend may well have been treated unfairly- are they really concerned that she wants to limit young kids' screen time and weight ?

Hi again, sorry I had no battery and also my own busy family life to deal with. Thanks I agree @AliasGrace47 as I said nobody really knows what happens behind closed doors, from what I know it is not to do with smacking but with strict parenting, also making the children do chores in addition to what I mentioned earlier. Again, I don't really know for sure what the exact allegations are and by the sound of it neither do the parents for sure yet as it all happened yesterday afternoon and it is probably difficult to contact solicitors and services at the weekend. As I said, we can all make assumptions and sometimes that is all we can do. I do not doubt the school have acted in good faith and done what they think is in the best interest of the child but I wouldn't be surprise if their concerns were unfounded. All I really want is to be able to advise on what steps to take, giving them the benefit of the doubt. For example what would be their first port of call? Contact a solicitor? The Council? Social Services themselves? The police? Citizens advice? Does it make a difference if they are not British Citizens as to what services they can access? @PeachPumpkin how come they won't need to pay for the solicitor? Is that standard in these cases? If that is the case it will be reassuring. Thanks all for your time!

Social services can't remove children from school with no paperwork explaining exactly what is happening and the paperwork gives the parents information about contacting solicitors and what meetings they have to attend (there are normally strict time scales in care proceedings or any sort of removal)
If they feel that there are cultural misconceptions, then they need to write to their social workers senior manager and raise it as a complaint.
If its got to the point of care proceedings and removal, the family will have an allocated social worker and they will have had already had it explained to them what they are expected to change in how they are acting towards their children.
The paperwork that they will have been given would make it very clear why the children have been removed.
Do they have recourse to public funds ?(what is their status in the UK and where have they moved from)
Social Services don't remove children for different styles of parenting, it sounds like the child has disclosed something that puts them over the thresholds that social services use to assess cases and now need to establish the truth whilst keeping the child away from any potential issues.

OP, kindly I know you’re trying to help and I get it but seriously I’d stay out of it.

a friend of a friend’s children? Nah, absolutely not your battle to fight. Children don’t get taken for no reason, racism or not (and yes, I’m non white and I get it). But in regards to recent cases like Sara Sharif etc overwhelmingly very little actually gets done so it takes a lot for children to be taken.

I’d honestly stay away. If it ends up something awful has happened and you stuck your beak on speaking up on behalf of abusers it’s going to look so bad!

Solicitors being free in cases of this nature is standard. The LA will give them a list they can choose from. These solicitors are independent and not in the pocket of the LA. They will fight the corner of the parents. Best thing the parents can do is contact a solicitor and work with their social worker.

If they’ve been taken into care on the basis of not getting screen time and having to do reasonable childhood chores I will eat every hat in England.

Thank you all for your replies and concern, I think I now have all the information I needed. Best wishes to all!

Edited as I read properly and saw this happened only yesterday. In that case they have likely been removed by police under police protection, not via a court order. The local authority have 72 hours to get a court order if that's what they plan to do. Otherwise the children have to be returned at the end of 72 hours

If the children have been removed it will have been via a court order, which means threshold for interim removal has been crossed and this is very high. It's simply not possible that they have been removed because of strict parenting. The law is very clear that parents have the right to parent their children however they see fit unless they are causing the children significant harm. This means physical abuse, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, chronic and severe neglect or persistent domestic violence in a nutshell. The parents will have had lots of documents to read setting out the reasons for the application and the decision and will have free legal representation. They will have been told clearly by the judge, social workers and lawyers what they need to do to get their children back. Your intervention is well meaning but ultimately not likely to be helpful, especially if you're reinforcing the narrative that they have been targeted due to racism and cultural bias. That's not going to help the parents face the real issues.

I can't really comment on the cultural/ racist aspect but I would recommend that they ask for a meeting with the social worker and if needed request that the social worker provides a translator if that would help if there's any language barrier so everyone is crystal clear on exactly what is being communicated.

If the children have been removed, my understanding is that there needs to be a court order in place and SS need to demonstrate that the children are or are suspected of being at risk of immediate and significant harm if they remain in the parents care. So I agree with the pp who recommended you stay out of it given that you don't (and won't) have the full picture. It won't be a parenting style issue - it would be something much more serious than that as parenting styles can usually be addressed with the children in the home. Placements for children in care are exceptionally difficult to find at present so I have found that the threshold is higher for removal than it would have been previously. So my guess is a child has made a disclosure or someone has misinterpreted a disclosure or there have been signs of significant harm. Social services have no choice but to act on that.

The family need to get a solicitor with experience of family law and have them present. Social services can make genuine mistakes- I know a girl who's children were removed because she appeared under the influence but it was actually prescribed medication she had taken correctly that just needed adjusted and that was rectified very quickly. But you've no way to know what this actually is so I don't think getting involved will help anyone.

There’s absolutely 0 chance these are the reasons OP

When you say cultural misinterpretation - this itself can mean many things - I know 1 person it has happened to (there was good reason behind the children being taken away - as if it was any other family it looked suspicious - essentially there was a change in guardianship for good reason but authorities needed to get involved) - it was only cultural misinterpretation because the guardian of the children at the time didn’t speak great English and the neighbours were suspicious and reported it. However after a few interviews and an investigation the children were returned home.

The second time I’ve heard of cultural misinterpretation, the family didn’t speak any English. The man was abusing the mother, but the mother had to relocate to a complete different city with the children as the children mentioned something in school. So although the children weren’t being abused, they weren’t in a safe environment. If the mum didn’t accept to relocate with the children they would have taken them.

Im relaying these to emphasis that it’s very very complicated. In the first instance the children were safe but there was a “transfer in guardianship” that needed to happen legally. The second time, it wasn’t fair that the family had to be removed from everything that they know. Sometimes children are taken away whilst an investigation happens.

I also know many situations where SS should be involved but the parents are discreet and the child doesn’t speak up or show signs of abnormality, and so nothing ever happens.

Sometimes cultural misunderstandings do happen. All you can do is share the links with your friend and as others have said stay out of it unless you are directly involved somehow.

@AliasGrace47 not sure why you quoted me as my child was never taken away. Someone was shit stirring to try to make their own situation seem better and cause problems. Unfortunately for them, some healthcare workers and others disclosed more of the lies they were telling. It appears that individual black social workers are gullible and believe any nonsense told to them by a good liar who is white if it goes along with the racist stereotypes the individual black social worker believes on ethnic appearance, ethnicity and nationality taught to them by mainstream British schooling.

In regards to the OP - @Neweverything25 - there is a charity with a forum and helpline called the Family Rights Group who your acquaintances can get advice from. However they need to tell the truth from the beginning otherwise they can't be helped.

The only other people who can give them advice are people who work with SS. Again they need to tell them the truth from the beginning.