English names only?

[WildBactrian]

I read this and thought, what would they have said to a black person named Campbell?

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/music/ub40-singer-ali-campbell-reveals-he-was-turned-away-from-scottish-hotel-due-to-his-name/ar-AA1uW3SD

Do you think they'd have been turned away? It could have made for a very uncomfortable conversation. On a similar note, I've read threads where people are against English people using Irish names due to appropriation. I've often wondered what they'd say to a black English person with an Irish name. No one raises an eyebrow over our English heritage names. Is it just to do with where you live, do you think?

I'm just musing here.

I'm not black but I am Scottish and I can tell you that there are people in the Highlands who won't even buy Campbells soup. To be honest, I can't think of anywhere else in the UK where someone would be turned away because of their name - unless it was possibly Adolph Hitler or something deliberately offensive.

I don't think you're musing, I think you're ignorantly rambling and missing the entire point.

The story has absolutely nothing to do with "English names only", the colour of skin, or cultural appropriation.

@ginasevern try having a “foreign” sounding name; especially if it sounds somewhat Arabic. You’d know all about being turned away then!

I know what you mean OP. My DH has a very common English name (like John Smith but not), and potential employers have often had the shock if their lives when a black man shows up. He sometimes responds with “slavery was a crazy thing, right” when they make awkward comments about it.

@DogInATent you're the one missing my point 🙄Black mumsnetters will know exactly what I mean. That's why I posted in ... Black Mumsnetters.

But presumably it would be because of the person's clan heritage? I.e. that they are or are perceived to be a descendant of the Campbells who committed the atrocity. So I'm wondering if they'd react the same to a black Campbell, or would they realise that a black person would have acquired that surname through an entirely different process.

The (thankfully rare) type of highlander that still bears this grudge is very unlikely to distinguish based on skin colour, they're the sort that would turn away anyone called Campbell.

There are some very odd people in the highlands (and the lowlands, and the islands too, for that matter). These grudges lie somewhere between deeply-held political views and a cult.

@Black Mumsnetters in England, would you give your kids a less widely used Irish name if you liked it? So not Sean, Sinead, Siobhan, more like Tadhg, Saoirse, Aoife?

I love the Welsh name Aneuryn but I know it would raise eyebrows and questions. I was giving my surname once and a man said 'Oh, you must be married to a Scotsman.' He looked confused when I said no, it's my family name. Another time I tried to explain a bit of the history to a young woman but she wasn't having it. As far as she was concerned that was English history, not Scottish!

As a previous poster said, the hatred for the Campbells is so visceral that I doubt skin colour would come into it. They would (most probably) see a black person as a Campbell first.

You're the one ignorantly rambling. The OP is debating whether a black person with the surname Campbell would equally be turned away or whether the proprietor would have the insight to realise that the name was "assigned" to them, in most cases by a slave owner. Secondly, she wonders whether a black person would be accused of cultural appropriation if, for example, they had an Irish first name. Is the appropriation viewed in the same way or even considered at all?

😂😂😂 I respond like your husband if I'm questioned on whether I'm sure about my own blasted surname.

@WildBactrian that's a very interesting question. I live in Argyll in the heart of "Campbell country" so a visitor with that name would probably not have any bother. However by coincidence just last night before reading your post, my husband and I were talking about high profile Black British people who have Scottish names :- Sir Trevor McDonald, Naomi Campbell, Moria Stewart, to name just a few. Nothing really to do with your post really. Just musing.

Scottish heritage in the Caribbean is interesting. People often claim their great gran or whoever came from Scotland but when you trace it the evidence doesnt support that. I think it just feels more 'exotic' than having a bog standard English ancestor! The Treasure Beach, Jamaica story/legend is a case in point. I can link if anyone's interested.

It's also worth noting that surnames came about through a number of ways:

1. An enslaved person is related to an enslaver.
2. A manumitted person takes the surname of the former enslaver upon baptism. This identifies them socially as coming from that place.
3. After slavery ends in 1838, the region remains a colony for another 100 and odd years, so you get British men going there for work or business and marrying local women.

What is the Treasure Beach story/legend you're referring to please?

@WildBactrian

The legend is that a Scottish ship foundered in the 1600s. The survivors swam ashore and were so taken with the beauty of the local women that they stayed. This supposedly accounts for the concentration of light skinned, light eyed people in the Treasure Beach area, along with Scottish surnames.

There is no historical evidence of any such ship. The truth is likely way less romantic. There have been waves of migration over the centuries. First the Spanish decimated the indigenous Taino populations, before losing control of the island to the British. In 1699 some survivors of the disastrous Scottish mission (the Darien project) are thought to have made their way to Jamaica. Other Scots were both prisoners of war and, increasingly, estate owners. Ships were wrecked in the 1800s that may have had Scots onboard, but there isn't this legendary 'Scottish ship' of lovestruck sailors. And there are Scottish surnames all over the island, not just there. I could go on, but I don't want to nerd everyone out 🤓

Nerd away @WildBactrian! I love hearing history from people who have a passion for it.

In that case, AMA 😁
(Caribbean history and heritage related)

I'd be interested to hear more about the legacy of the Darien scheme on the Caribbean. I know the impact it had in the UK.

And, going back to your original post, whether any of the clan feuds were exported to the Caribbean.

I feel like I’ve learned something new - super interesting! I wasn’t aware of the Scottish involvement in the Caribbean.

Im a black woman - my name sounds either European or East Asian - however people from Europe or Asia would know that my name isn’t from there - if that makes sense. As another PP said, I often get a shock when I turn up to places as I assume people don’t expect to see me. However my name doesn’t sound African - where my family are from (however if you were from my country you or the South / central region- my name would make sense to you… kind off haha).

I also want to add that I’m from a Francophone country and I do find that it adds another layer of confusion - I do find myself educating people - across the board.

Someone once told me (a black woman who had lived in and grew up in East Africa - and she had experienced little “otherness” until she started living in the UK) - she said if you take away race, and if we were all the same race, we would just find the next differentiating thing to separate us.

For example, if we are one race, then we would discriminate by tribe (which I’ve seen!) or eye colour, or gender- or something.

It seems like the Campbell thing is more of a cultural thing (I think the Scottish person mentioned it) - in a similar way, in my country, people genuinely will have an opinion of you depending on your surname as it signifies “where you are from”/what tribe you are from and therefore whether you should mix with x.

I find being part of the diaspora we have a very blended culture and definition of the “black experience” - not sure if this relates to your original question, but your post made me think of all of this x