White People using Black People they like against Black People they dislike

[MrsDaisyChappelle]

First a disclaimer

Just in case this thread pops up in “Active”. This is a contribution to the Black Mumsnetters board which was established to be a safe space for black women and allies to discuss issues of interest black women, from racism to African history, from black hair care to culture-specific issues in relationships. If you feel triggered, nothing here is an attack on you. I would hate for a thread centering black experience to be hijacked so that it ends about centering those who may have hurt feelings because this discussion may be uncomfortable for them. Thank you!

On to my issue

I am happy to be back on Mumsnet. I left after several complaints about racism on the many threads about MM, the Duchess of Sussex, went unheeded. Some of it was obvious, but mostly it was insidious. When these threads became “bun-fights”, Mumsnet simply deleted them without the racism being challenged, meaning it popped up again in other threads which were then deleted. It was an endless loop.

In the end Mumsnet simply banned all the MM threads, but I notice they are now sprouting like spring daffodils. This thread is inspired by a thread I saw recently where Michelle Obama's comments seemed to have been deliberately misinterpreted so they could be used as a weapon against MM.

That was the trigger, but my point is a larger one so Mumsnet, easy on the delete button. This is not a thread about a thread.

I think it would be really great to have a discussion around the phenomenon where some white people, partially those with power in the establishment, trot out black people they approve of as a weapon against black people they dislike. We can find so many examples. It is a tactic as old as slavery, pitting the house negroes, who were considered obedient, against the field negroes, who were considered rebellious.

Colonialism in Africa and indeed in India, Malaya, etc, operated the same way, often pitting some “tribes” by which they meant ethnic nations or groups, as more advanced than others considered less evolved.

It is also interesting to me that Michelle Obama was used against MM as the standard of how black women should comport themselves, but there is no such externally determined standard on how white women should behave.

Who is the white Michelle? No one. But the “pride of her race” stuff keeps coming up, people being divided into good kinds of blacks and bad kinds of blacks.

The Daily Mail did a whole thing where they found black people willing to attack MM, even misquoting the head of the choir that sang at her wedding.

This is not to say that black people don’t have their own agency or may have reasons to dislike her. But I find it troubling that the Daily Mail would NEVER ask these commentators to comment on white people that the Daily Mail targets, but are trotted out to comment on MM.

There are so many issues around this! I would love to hear your views and examples.

And thank you for this fantastic board, it’s the only reason I am back.

There are two female British politicians, one who is black and the other who is Asian, who I immediately though off. I am deliberately not naming them.

I have included the latter mainly because of the effect the policies of her department have had and are continuing to have on black people.

Anyway both are held up by some on MN - including on this board - , by the government as they are part of it, certain newspapers and other outlets as examples of how Britain is now not a racist and sexist society.

Both of them have demonstrated numerous times that they are unable to understand that their experience of racism in the UK is different to people of another ethnic group, and also that racism in the UK is systemic.

In the first case she is unable to recognise that her upbringing means that her experiences in education are different to black women of her own age group educated here in their formative years. So while she may have mixed ethnicity children and have been educated here later as a child, she hasn't had the personal experience of racism at school that helps to lower the self-esteem of black women who are a similar age to her.

Anyway both of them have had controversies that show that they can be extremely unpleasant to other people including women and black women. When these controversies have been brought up on here and it is explained ministers regardless of their race and sex shouldn't act like that to other people, posters are accused of racism and/or sexism for pointing this out. Due to the type of industries I've worked in over the years and who my partner directly deals with in his job, I am aware of other less prominent ministers who have quietly stepped down for similar poor behaviour with other excuses made on why they stepped down.

It is clear like Michelle Obama that both women experience racism and sexism in the media and on these boards, however the same people who subject them to racism and sexism also hold them up as model minority women when it suits them. This means they are used to beat down black women who object to what they do and say due to their policies having a direct effect on black women's lives.

They are weaponising her race. “Look your own people don’t believe you”

Anyway. I don’t wish to comment much more for fear of derailing your thread. Just wanted to say I agree 1000%

WhiteSquare

Weaponising her race is what it is! See, see, your own people don’t believe you, so you did not experience racism! That’s exactly the strategy. Please do comment more.

This is also a thread for allies if you are scared you can’t post because you are white.

RedMarauder

Excellent post. This is exact the conversation I hoped to have. Model minorities.

And yes the Home Secretary is a great example. She is to racism what Thatcher was to feminism. Both belong to the school of, well, I managed to do it all on my own through sheer hard grit, damn it, I pulled myself up by my boostraps, so racism doesn’t exist, so women’s empowerment is not necessary etc.

They have universalized the specifics of their own experience and, in a reductionist manner, they have applied them to all minorities and women.

The Home Secretary has ascended the ladder, and to maintain her foothold on the establishment, she seems happy to kick the ladder away from others. She then becomes useful as a model minority who can be deployed in defending white interests.

It’s mind boggling that, as some critics have analyzed, under the new immigration rules she champions for the Tories, her own parents would have failed to get in.

At some point I hope to discuss how troubling the assumptions are behind the construct of “BAME” as it conflates “oppressions” and exclusions and assumes all are equally oppressed in the same ways. Intersectionality becomes really important here.

Have to work for a bit but I will be back. Thanks for the great contributions so far!

They are weaponising her race. “Look your own people don’t believe you”

This is an example of othering and illustrates one of the issues with the term BAME as Michelle Obama and MM don't put themselves in the same ethnic category.

(According to the British census Mr Obama and MM by their parents ethnicities aren't even in the same ethnic category. )

I think, in the Michelle Obama example you gave, obviously not the historical ones, it’s also used as a “guard” against claims of racism. The implication of “well Michelle Obama thinks this, so unless you’re saying she’s racist, you can’t accuse me of racism for having this view.”

Yes agree this happens a lot is so destructive. There's an "acceptable" "obedient" black person who doesn't challenge the white hegemony, they tow the line and they are then used as commentators or to juxtapose other black people to say "look, look" this person is well behaved.

The worst is that dickhead mayoral candidate who has said some truly shocking stuff which he always justifies by saying "he's a man of the people" and grew up on the streets.

My DH is a big diversity champion at work, he's consistently the only black man in the department and if they believe he is getting too controversial they try to palm him off on a nonsense project or exclude him from discussions as there are other black people on different departments that aren't challenging in the way he is. He's too vocal for them. It is so infuriating.

”I think it would be really great to have a discussion around the phenomenon where some white people, partially those with power in the establishment, trot out black people they approve of as a weapon against black people they dislike.”

I’m white Irish and know exactly what you are talking about, I often see it in articles and in comments. I’m not sure why these people think they have the authority to decide what is appropriate behaviour for a black person especially in relation to how that black person is responding to challenges they’ve experienced because of their race. It’s audacious.

It's funny Michelle is now the acceptable Black person being used to beat down another Black/mixed race person, when just a few years ago the same people and press were alluding to Michelle being too masculine, calling her a monkey in a dress etc.

Funny that some people get to cherry pick other people's humanity and use it when it presents some sort of expediency to them. People use Black people when they want and use them to beat down other Black people.

The silencing of anyone involved in fighting for racial equality or protests by saying MLK or Mandela wouldn't have wanted this he wanted unity (I.e. you to accept this silently or ask very nicely and quietly to not disturb my life) when 1. How do you know what they would have wanted?

1. You are misrepresenting their entire life work's to guilt Black people into silence (weirdly by quoting a Black man who was killed by white people for fighting racism- make it make sense)

Even Bernice King had to tell someone who said she was a disappointment to her father for supporting BLM to go and read his whole "I have a dream speech " to find out what he actually stood for.

@RedMarauder Completely agree with you and this is part of the problem of using BAME as a cover all. We are not all the same and have very different experiences.

The worst is that dickhead mayoral candidate who has said some truly shocking stuff which he always justifies by saying "he's a man of the people" and grew up on the streets.

The Tories keep putting up male Mayoral candidates in London from minority backgrounds who try their established tactic of divide and conquer. Luckily lots of Londoners can see through how they do it.

Btw I'm not saying all other parties don't have issues in how they treat black people.

It's disgusting. It's all part of the narrative Black people are a monolith, white people are individuals EXCEPT when a Black person does something amazing. Then the narrative is to try and set them apart from other Black people as if they can't possibly be part of that group of ne'er do wells. It's a tiresome trope, yet it gets played over and over again.

Completely agree. If we as black people achieve then there’s a hidden ‘she got helped up by affirmative action’ and if we do something wrong then it’s because we are black. I have to admit to being relieved that the killer of SE wasn’t a black person because the backlash against all of us would’ve been dire.

I see people like the politicians referred to upthread as very damaged people who have internalised racist tropes and are desperate for white approval and to show themselves as being exceptional. It’s sad really - I suppose they are victims in a way, though they have a dreadful effect on others through their actions. Reminds me of some elderly relatives who grew up in very white areas and would go along with the offensive jokes in the pubs and clubs so as to be seen as a ‘good lad’

So much truth in this post & thread. Michelle Obama's words were twisted in comical fashion so as to present her as a "Gotcha" - Look, here we have a Black Woman thinks the same as we do hence we are justified in our nasty sexist racism towards you that we think isn't visible

We knew what Michelle O was saying though. Loud and clear.

The good Black people vs bad Black people is an age-old trope, says a lot about society that it's still being dredged up for use in 2021.

Benelovencd
Even Bernice King had to tell someone who said she was a disappointment to her father for supporting BLM to go and read his whole "I have a dream speech " to find out what he actually stood for

Exactly.

MLK also said "I feel I am leading my people into a burning house".

& He had a lot to say about the danger of the polite racism of White liberals who are more concerned with order than justice. In "I know you are fighting against deadly racism but could you just go about resistance very peacefully and in quiet orderly fashion please?" style.

The faux-ally type who 'supports' Black civil rights but wants to control how you go about gaining those rights, so that policies that perpetuate racism and prejudice - and benefit them both directly and indirectly - aren't disturbed.

I don't recall (aside from amongst Black Women) any major outcry or endless talking about Michelle O being compared to an animal, a man, trans etc. Interesting how the "Gotcha" crew aren't discerning of thought enough to pick up on that, as a prominent Black Woman, Michelle O faced racist and sexist microaggressions from the public too, during her time in the White House.

Do they really imagine, that she would ever in a million years, think like them?

All of this is not 'the right type' of feminist issue I guess