To rethink the words auntie and uncle for the future generation.

[debbrianna]

I was reading an article randomly about the changes happening with Uncle Ben's rice and Aunt Jemima. It also, talked about how the names came to be. Uncle Ben's used to be known as uncles Ben's plantation rice. This is why they want to change the name and not only becuase of the image and current name.
The titles uncle and aunt were given becuase they could not give them Mr or Mrs.

Why the thread?
I now believe it's the reason most black people generally when using english to describe an elder who is not a relative, we either use aunt or uncle instead of Mr and Mrs/Ms.
Down to slavery and colonial rule forced upon black people.
We as black people and other marginal groups have made the words bigger than the intended blood relative descriptor.

Interesting point to consider. I like Aunty or Uncle because to me it shows respect without being overly formal. Now I come to think of it, there were friends of my parents who were 'Mr ....', they tended to be friends who wouldn't come round the house, so more distant.

In the US there are definitely racist connotations. That is illustrated overtly by the caricature images that go with the brands. I remember watching a history programme and the researcher was going through an old newspaper and knew that a woman was black because she was named as "Jane Jones" rather than "Mrs Jones".

However, for African folk I'd assumed it was more linked to the idea of strong communities - people living in compounds in many cases, and extended families having greater significance than in Western tradition. Despite having a grandad who grew up under colonial rule in W Africa I really know so little about how it affected day-to-day life. He didn't speak about it when alive and I haven't come across much literature on it, so I don't feel I can make an informed comment on the origins there. Interested to hear from others though.

I understand your point but I think it differs culturally.

Like PP it is a way to show

Posted too soon.

Like PP said it is a way to show respect without being overly formal.

Culturally auntie and uncle for me anyway are tied to respect and finding a familial relationship of some sort with anyone. In my culture we have totems which you inherit from your father. Your mother has a different totem as will your maternal cousins etc. This means if I meet a person and they have the same totem as my maternal grandmother, I will refer to that person as my grandmother regardless of age and if male: as my grandfather as a sign of respect (which although might not be insulting to a 20 year old there, would definitely be insulting here).

Auntie and uncle is shorthand for this and allows people like me to continue that part of our culture in a different environment. I personally like that aspect of my culture and can't see myself giving it up completely.

I do understand the complex history behind it especially from the slavery background and refusing to give respect to black people -but although we use all use "auntie" and "uncle" as black people, the reasons culturally vary.

(Of course I never call anyone auntie or uncle who finds it uncomfortable and considers it to be overfamiliar)

Auntie and uncle are used across West Africa as a sign of respect. And by people of a West African background in the UK for the same reason.

I actually don't think the reasons vary. Especially, West africa and America with the with the history of slavery. I do believe it's one of those blanket words that got left behind and we all now use it.

It's a great word that makes life easy when talking to people older than us who are not blood relatives. But understanding that for most Africans the word didn't exist pre- colonial rule in the context we are using it in.

I use it all the time when I go to the salons and the most insistent people are aunties from West Africa. (I don't know them from Adam).

Like lots of branded goods, I don't consider the meaning behind the words. Uncle Ben's to me is a jar of sauce or microwave rice. I think the majority of us have Uncles and Aunts so it's a well known family term. I guess I've always assumed it could be like my Uncle's cooking.

Should it become Mr Ben's, that sounds less like 'family' and more formal and could impact on the brand?

I'm not sure if I'm missing other messages in the words.

Colonial rule and slavery forced English on us. So, I 'shouldn't' be using the twenty-three words I have used write this sentence.

I now believe it's the reason most black people generally when using english to describe an elder who is not a relative, we either use aunt or uncle instead of Mr and Mrs/Ms.

Sorry - but this is also a very common practice amongst groups of whites too! All my parents friends were "Auntie" or "Uncle" to me and my siblings, and that is the norm that I still experience. It may be a class thing or an ethnicity thing - I don't know. But it is still extremely common amongst white people too. Nothing to do with slavery or colonial history. It's about recognising and respecting elders that we know.

Not only is it a title so that people know how someone is related to you, and I love being called Auntie, it is used to when a none relative is close to you. It is also used in certain cultures out of respect for one's elders you don't need to dig deep to find evidence of this. Yes also has connections to slave trade but why try to wipe out and hide history, it should be discussed and acknowledged.

@Moondust001

I now believe it's the reason most black people generally when using english to describe an elder who is not a relative, we either use aunt or uncle instead of Mr and Mrs/Ms.

Sorry - but this is also a very common practice amongst groups of whites too! All my parents friends were "Auntie" or "Uncle" to me and my siblings, and that is the norm that I still experience. It may be a class thing or an ethnicity thing - I don't know. But it is still extremely common amongst white people too. Nothing to do with slavery or colonial history. It's about recognising and respecting elders that we know.

I agree. I am white and live in one of the least ethically diverse parts of the UK. Almost everyone I knew growing up (80s) had close family friends of their parents' generation (or older) that they referred to as 'Aunty' or 'Uncle'.

*ethnically not ethically

Calling a female friend of the family, 'aunty' andba close male friend, uncle, is very common in white working class communities and Asian communities. My Tunisian friends also does it. Its really not a black only thing.

The OP did not say it was only a black thing. OP stated clearly in the final sentence of the post 'We as black people and other marginal groups have made the words bigger than the intended blood relative descriptor.' It is also quite clear to me from this that OP also considered other marginal groups to be impacted by the phenomenon OP is discussing, and also by saying 'we' that she is referring to black people as a group. It does not OP is addressing anyone who is not black.

Importantly, if this is something that happens in British communities this rather supports the OP who appears to be putting forward the argument that it comes from British culture.

It would be interesting to hear explicitly from the white British upper classed community on this - if they have never and do not ever refer to one another as aunty and uncle then that might point to the fact that they did enforce it on others as part of the heinous, unforgivable, shameful, disgusting, depraved oppressive campaign on others.

Agree with PP - I feel that Auntie and Uncle are much more respectful when greeting elders, and is commonly used in the Asian community. The thought of using an elder's first name fills me with horror, and I think Mr/Mrs is quite... 'cold'?

Interesting. Traditionally Igbo culture is very much structured along an age hierarchy, so you pay respect to women in your mothers age group as you would respect your mother (that's a simplification, it's more complex than that esp for men). I do find it hard to believe that the use of respectful terms based on age was introduced by the Europeans but the specific terms themselves may have been. I'd always assumed they were a direct translation.

I wonder what the alternative would be. Surely not 'mr' or 'mrs' because that would be coming from the same place as aunty and uncle?

I would love to know what an alternative would be.

I know that in some W African cultures there is no word for 'cousin' for example, your cousin is just brother or sister because it is your parents' sibling's child, this makes absolute sense to me. Also, you call your aunty Big mum, or Small mum (according to age relative to your mum) and so on. This also makes sense to me.

I am Jamaican and we don't use aunty as much with older women, we do say mum, mama, 'muum' or 'muumy'.

In my West African culture, we use the relevant term for older people, so my DM's sister would either be called Aunty or also DM, largely dependent on how close we were. This would be the same for DM's friends, so it's not just blood relatives. We would never dare call an elder by their first name only, it's just not the done thing!

Reflecting on this topic is interesting. For me it highlighted that children have a very different status to adults in my culture; the two groups are not equal in any sense of the word. This can lead to children not being heard, or being silenced, which I can relate to. The challenge for me is to instil the same respect levels for elders in my DC, whilst also giving their voices space. Navigating these cultural differences of being UK born and bred but having direct heritage of different country, customs and cultures can be very challenging.

I think Mr and Sir are held far higher and more respectful. It has been part of the reasons why some Americans give their child the name Mister or sir as first name.

The hierarchy applies to Mr and Mrs when it comes to sexism and not just class. I believe it's the reason why you will struggle to find a kids TV show with the word Mrs or Ms in the title. But it's ok for Mr. Its both fun and respectful. While Mrs becomes becomes too formal for general use.

I would apply the same logic to how uncle and aunt is used as described previously in my post..the formalities of the word indicates who should access those words and wether it's fitting for some people to be described that way.

Thinking more about it, Mr T gave himself that title so that he could be respected. Something his father was denied.

@Starseeking That’s a really good point about children’s voices with there being such respect for elders. That’s a whole other issue. My parents were quite right on and liberal in their parenting, as a rebellion against strict African discipline they grew up with and I do think it can go too far the other way.

In my experience of living in West Africa when I was a student, age mates would refer to me as ‘sister’ and older people were auntie, uncle, sir or ma’am. Now I’m older and friends are starting to have kids, I’d like to be ‘auntie’ to them - it feels warm and inclusive and signifies importance in my friendships with their parents. So rightly or wrongly I don’t have a desire to change this.

DH is from an upper middle class white background and it isn’t a thing in his upbringing. Elders are referred to by first names. Unlike my Indian and other non-white, or white working class friends.

I was having a connected discussion with my mum yesterday, coincidentally - we were noting that in our family (entirely white English) the working-class Londoners all used Auntie/Uncle traditionally for both related and unrelated adults who were close to the family and my mum was brought up 1940s/1950s calling friends of the family in her parents/grandparents generation that. My dad's more middle/upper middle class family did not - adults were just called by their name.

Not sure if this is common, or just my family. Certainly my parents just used first names, and we would all find it socially a bit awkward to call an unrelated person (or a related one for that matter) Auntie or Uncle, so it may be dying off now as a form of address.

Equally, we would never have used Mr/Mrs or Sir/Ma'am to anyone in family life, related or not. I had an American boyfriend once who called my father Sir on first meeting him and there was about 10 seconds of absolute silence whilst my family tried to process it mentally Just first names has always been the practice for us, child or adult. Mr/Mrs or Sir/Ma'am was for teachers or business relationships only.

My parents were white working class in the Midlands & I remember my mum saying she had people called Auntie & Uncle who weren't blood relations. However my brother & didn't. We had blood related aunts & uncles, but my parents close friends were known to us by their first names.
However as I've had DC we've referred to our close friends as Aunt & Uncle to our children so they know them as Aunty X & Uncle Y, but know they aren't mine or DHs siblings.

On your other point I think one of the reasons Mrs isn't used for tv characters etc is it immediately identifies the person as married whereas Mr doesn't - so there is clearly some sort of misogynistic censoring or reducing by not using it ifyswim? I'm not being clear I don't think but yes there is definitely more to it. Using Mrs is formal & indicates a married woman in a way Mr does not, & thus is somehow lesser.