Jollof or rice and peas?

[Sugarintheplum]

Dear All,

I am sorry, this is not about jollof or rice and peas, but I am trying to get away from prying eyes. Will it work? Let us see.

I am interested in black women's thoughts on this one. It's about having friendships and our relationships with white women.

10 years ago I had a dinner party. Ten women attended, 5 were black, 5 were white. Had a riotous time. Was great. That was probably the make up of my friendship group back then. Not hugely diverse, true. Anyway, fast forward around 10 years, just before Covid lockdowns I had another dinner party and every woman around the table was black, so even worse in the diversity stakes.

Now, ok, I DO have white friends, they just mostly live in other countries. It gave me reason for pause. I think some of those are still active friendships at least partly because they live elsewhere and I don't see them that much. I'll explain. Over the years my friendships with white women have fizzled out because something has happened that I found insurmountable and often it was something cultural. This could be my racism, you know, putting a behaviour in cultural terms, but I have noticed a very British / Western European individualistic way of relating to people that I find off-putting. Say for example I'd have a problem and chat to them about it and their advice would be 'fuck your mum, tell her to do it herself'. Or something. This sounds so small, but the more I moved towards having a family of my own, pressures at work etc, I just noticed that I couldn't really relate to them, I couldn't understand where they were coming from. I don't know, a distance just grew. And some of it I found offensive, honestly, especially comment on my family. My black friends never ever did this stuff.

Some friendships faded because race became significant. I'll give an example. I was talking about my holiday to Cuba with a white friend whom I considered one of my very best friends. She kept saying her experience of It when she went was that it was awful because of the lack of political freedom. My preference is also for democratic process, however I commented that I found it refreshing to be in a country where I could talk to a black man I had just met, and have him tell me he was a maths teacher, or a doctor, or a scientist etc and that freedom from race-based oppression felt good to me. It wasn't an argument, we just disagreed, but she cried anyway (....) Then I felt bad for having an opinion. Anyway, this kind of not seeing eye to eye took its toll. And I got tired of having to point out the micro aggressions or to just take them on the chin.

And then there were little bits here and there that were just suspect to me. And these little things were not popping up with my black friends, so over a decade I have found my friendship group shift. I'd say I have one white friend in the UK who is a good friend. I have other white friends, but we are 'meet up for coffee once a year and chat on a WhatsApp group' friends, not good personal friends necessarily. At that last dinner party, I also noticed that I didn't invite one or two of my white friends because I felt it would change the vibe. This is something I did not do a decade previously.

So, separate to this, but perhaps related. I was chatting to the good white friend I have on the phone recently and I told her that since MeToo I have noticed that I have had more run ins with white women. I was shouted at in the street recently at my child's nursery just the other day. My neighbour next door knocked down my garden wall and basically said 'so?' Other bits, too, epiloguing would be in bad taste. I remarked to that white friend that maybe since the main oppressors of white women have had a chuck bitten out of them, white women have become more emboldened and black women / people are negatively impacted by it. She chimed in with some examples of her own.

Then, honestly, my experience of white women on these threads has not been great.

Now this could all be BS. I could be viewing this out of my own prejudiced lens. I don't know, but what I feel is that my relationships with white women are generally going south.

Black women, what are your thoughts?

[Dastardlythefriendlymutt]

Being married to a Black man doesn't give you access to Black only spaces!

This is always given as some sort of trump card, even by women playing devil's advocate and my answer is still no. It's not different from a man insisting access to woman only spaces because he has a female partner and daughters. Or a man saying their opinion is more valid over a woman's on women's issue because they see how badly their wife struggles with discrimination and they worry about their daughters too.

Noone would tolerate that kind of intrusion, but we are meant to.

[Starseeking]

If I had a pound for every time I have had a white woman sidle up to me in her eagerness to proclaim that her DH/DP/DC/DGC are Black, therefore "she knows how it is", I wouldn't need to work.

I honestly don't get why some white people feel that proximity to Blackness gives them some sort of club membership. It doesn't. I've heard experiences of some vile racism from white women with Black DC, so I wouldn't even agree that a white person having a non-white partner automatically makes them non-racist. It doesn't. All it means is that they have a non-white partner.

[samosamo]

As an early teen my best friend's mum used to instruct her NEVER to marry a black man because they're all no good. She did this in front of me, lots and lots of times, knowing I had a black dad (still lovingly married to my mum till this day). Doing it to her daughter, too, I mean how confusing and sad for my friend? This woman also had a son.

Beggars belief. Honestly.

My friend is now happily married to a West African man, so that tactic didn't work....

So yes, having black or mixed race DD, DS, Dear anything at all does not stop one from being racist in any way, shape or form.

[Frogartist]

@Waakyeandredred

Honestly...if I talk! It's so frustrating...what dont people understand about this being a space for Black women. Does this happen on other boards? I'm sure this doesn't happen on adoption, craicnet or the LGBT space. Why oh why!?!! Being married to a Black man doesn't give you access to Black only spaces! Black women just want to talk amongst themselves but no it would appear that a white woman must just pop in to say XYZ or "me too" kmt. Take your me too elsewhere or post on the main board. I'm so happy to have this space here online but day by day it seems that it won't be a space for Black women to discuss in peace, it seems like every thread eventually turns in to a back and forth.

Don't know about craicnet or the LGBT boards, but it certainly happens on the Adoption board. A lot of people who aren't adopters post to ask questions and there is a thread atm called "Why are baby's removed at birth?" that is quite critical and another one about why you would NOT adopt (this thread was originally posted elsewhere but was moved to the Adoption board as it was felt it was the right place for it).

[Frogartist]

Another example from the Adoption board www.mumsnet.com/Talk/adoptions/4162067-adoption

[Waakyeandredred]

The thread you shared has been deleted. However, my point remains the same.

[DastardlytheFriendlyMutt]

Agree with you @Waakyeandredred. Weirdly enough posts trying to prove otherwise further illustrate your points

[Frogartist]

@DastardlytheFriendlyMutt

Agree with you *@Waakyeandredred*. Weirdly enough posts trying to prove otherwise further illustrate your points

That is strange, because I repli3d to the question "does this happen on other boards" and I simply showed you that yes it does.

[curlingtoes]

First of all, nice to see this forum and this thread! Rice and peas for me please.

Secondly, this isn't every one obviously but I've noticed a lot of white women in particular have an issue with a black woman who doesn't need help or saving or isn't somehow economically disadvantaged. I've noticed this in how they quickly try to befriend you until they ask what you do or where you live and you tell them or when they visit (pre covid). They pull back because they can't seem to relate much to you if you're perceived as on the same level or better. It's really strange how quickly things change.

They typically size you up initially firing questions at you, I don't know if it's to see if you meet up with their idea of a black woman or to decide if you're a threat or something but it's creepy and I don't feel comfortable being around unfamiliar white women irl because of it. I'm not a fish in a bowl, thanks!

[JamesAnderson]

I'm really sorry but I'm white and come over every couple of months to have a look for threads about food.
I really enjoyed the Christmas food thread.
I'll just slide out of the back door quietly now 🙂