Jollof or rice and peas?

[Sugarintheplum]

Dear All,

I am sorry, this is not about jollof or rice and peas, but I am trying to get away from prying eyes. Will it work? Let us see.

I am interested in black women's thoughts on this one. It's about having friendships and our relationships with white women.

10 years ago I had a dinner party. Ten women attended, 5 were black, 5 were white. Had a riotous time. Was great. That was probably the make up of my friendship group back then. Not hugely diverse, true. Anyway, fast forward around 10 years, just before Covid lockdowns I had another dinner party and every woman around the table was black, so even worse in the diversity stakes.

Now, ok, I DO have white friends, they just mostly live in other countries. It gave me reason for pause. I think some of those are still active friendships at least partly because they live elsewhere and I don't see them that much. I'll explain. Over the years my friendships with white women have fizzled out because something has happened that I found insurmountable and often it was something cultural. This could be my racism, you know, putting a behaviour in cultural terms, but I have noticed a very British / Western European individualistic way of relating to people that I find off-putting. Say for example I'd have a problem and chat to them about it and their advice would be 'fuck your mum, tell her to do it herself'. Or something. This sounds so small, but the more I moved towards having a family of my own, pressures at work etc, I just noticed that I couldn't really relate to them, I couldn't understand where they were coming from. I don't know, a distance just grew. And some of it I found offensive, honestly, especially comment on my family. My black friends never ever did this stuff.

Some friendships faded because race became significant. I'll give an example. I was talking about my holiday to Cuba with a white friend whom I considered one of my very best friends. She kept saying her experience of It when she went was that it was awful because of the lack of political freedom. My preference is also for democratic process, however I commented that I found it refreshing to be in a country where I could talk to a black man I had just met, and have him tell me he was a maths teacher, or a doctor, or a scientist etc and that freedom from race-based oppression felt good to me. It wasn't an argument, we just disagreed, but she cried anyway (....) Then I felt bad for having an opinion. Anyway, this kind of not seeing eye to eye took its toll. And I got tired of having to point out the micro aggressions or to just take them on the chin.

And then there were little bits here and there that were just suspect to me. And these little things were not popping up with my black friends, so over a decade I have found my friendship group shift. I'd say I have one white friend in the UK who is a good friend. I have other white friends, but we are 'meet up for coffee once a year and chat on a WhatsApp group' friends, not good personal friends necessarily. At that last dinner party, I also noticed that I didn't invite one or two of my white friends because I felt it would change the vibe. This is something I did not do a decade previously.

So, separate to this, but perhaps related. I was chatting to the good white friend I have on the phone recently and I told her that since MeToo I have noticed that I have had more run ins with white women. I was shouted at in the street recently at my child's nursery just the other day. My neighbour next door knocked down my garden wall and basically said 'so?' Other bits, too, epiloguing would be in bad taste. I remarked to that white friend that maybe since the main oppressors of white women have had a chuck bitten out of them, white women have become more emboldened and black women / people are negatively impacted by it. She chimed in with some examples of her own.

Then, honestly, my experience of white women on these threads has not been great.

Now this could all be BS. I could be viewing this out of my own prejudiced lens. I don't know, but what I feel is that my relationships with white women are generally going south.

Black women, what are your thoughts?

@samosamo I don’t hear anybody laughing do you? I don’t hear anybody giving a recipe either.

Personally I haven’t got time to engage it that it was obvious what it was about. I don’t know why anyone would want to engage in that foolishness rather than OPs thread

It’s not that anybody appreciated the humour . It’s that the topic has now been shifted So what has that achieved? Other than point scoring?

@warriorwomanx @Warrior There's no battle here for a black woman to express herself, you're making it into a battle. You can't blame people for popping onto a thread called 'Jollof and Rice and peas', did @OP really think only black people will know about Jollof?

The truth is this is the internet. Yes, this is a board for black Mners to express themselves and discuss topics that pertain to us specifically but you can't prevent other ethnicities for entering or posting on the board (we really must understand this!)and so long as they are not arguing about the black experience or posting racially charged comments, why can't they come on, read and perhaps learn a few things about a culture they are not familiar with? perhaps we are the closest some will ever come to understanding black issues. I think its usually quite clear when someone is trying to derail a thread, @Scottish was honestly wasn't.

It looks like some think this board is some sort of hidden locked room and any white person that strays in is shouted and booed off. It is not! no matter what strange name you give the threads.

We don't have to treat people the way we have been treated, I know many have had negative experiences of white people. Can we not show a different attitude? this can be a board of Strong, intelligent warm and friendly people not a pack of bull dogs frothing at the mouth every second a white head appears round the door. You are simply playing into the stereotype of the angry black woman which is what we keep saying we are not.

@samosamo

Is it rudeness? Or just that we weren't nice enough?

OP clearly asked for responses from black women. That could have been respected. It hasn't been and probably still won't be.

I didn't detect any humour in OP's post. In fact it was quite serious. It's clear she's in a bit of turmoil over it. At least one other poster felt so deeply as to not want to disclose too much detail. These are not jokey jokey issues. Perhaps this is something white women can't understand which is perhaps why OP asked to hear from black women.I think the whole 'can I have a recipe though? I know I shouldn't be here. Ho ho ho' was bang out of line. Hugely entitled.

Interesting that black women who object to that are the ones being requested to change their behaviours.

But it's great you appreciated the humour.

And that is the very definition of "tone policing". Think we should respect if the post asks for a black perspective only in the black section of MN

But what do I know anyway🤷🏿‍♀️?

I am strong, intelligent, warm and funny.

I'm not always strong, intelligent, warm and funny.

I'm certainly not a dog.

I too would love to hear more on OP's topic.

samosamo
Is it rudeness? Or just that we weren't nice enough?

OP clearly asked for responses from black women. That could have been respected. It hasn't been and probably still won't be

I didn't detect any humour in OP's post. In fact it was quite serious. It's clear she's in a bit of turmoil over it. At least one other poster felt so deeply as to not want to disclose too much detail. These are not jokey jokey issues. Perhaps this is something white women can't understand which is perhaps why OP asked to hear from black women.*

I think the whole 'can I have a recipe though? I know I shouldn't be here. Ho ho ho' was bang out of line. Hugely entitled

Interesting that black women who object to that are the ones being requested to change their behaviours

Yes. The usual.

We should ignore derailers and their supporters hijacking threads actually, and stick to the Post.

Otherwise it's very rude to the OP.

If we aren't 'The Help' anymore & others can't cope with that, it's their problem. I'm not making it mine that's for sure.

Yes @DeeCeeCherry I agree. Just continue as if we didn't see the post regardless of the temptation to respond (I know it is strong and it is difficult to sometimes leave dubious comments or ideas unchallenged, but maybe no reaction will bore them into skulking away)

I was all set to start raving about peas and rice!

But seriously.... Interesting topic. Growing up, all my friends were white. I was one of about 3 black girls in my entire school so there was no other option. My racial identity probably wasn't that strong and I was quite sheltered so didn't really question it that much. I would watch US sitcoms and sometimes feel I was missing out a bit (things like Aunt Viv and her sisters). But my core group of friends is still a group from school - white, Asian and me, and I love them and we can talk about most things. There have only been very few occasions when there's been a disconnect due to race.

When I entered the workplace and got exposed to a broader range of people, I definitely gravitated towards my few black colleagues (though they are far between in my industry), so I have joined black networks. Being able to speak to others who 'get it' has kept me sane. As I've got older I've also experienced so many micro aggressions - rude behaviour on public transport, attitudes in gym classes etc, or the worst - a colleague who had not long before told everyone loudly that she was reading the 'No longer talking about race' book and then sitting with her back to me in a meeting, and it has made me a bit more wary and want to cultivate black friendships more. But I have been lucky in that I've encountered a few women who are genuine allies and just seem to understand (but who don't go too far with it and lump race in with disability, gender etc).

I ALWAYS ignore the derailers (usually white women in BMN centreing themselves); they can't reply to air, can they? 🤷🏿‍♀️

Genius OP, I laughed hard after reading your opening paragraph, I love it!

My friendship group has definitely moved toward more Black people as I've got older, more conscious and more enlightened. My social circle consists of people similar to me; successful professionals whose heritage is predominantly from 3 African countries, who grew up in the UK. Not by design, however while writing this, I've realised I don't have any friends with Caribbean heritage.

Saying that, I have 1 white friend who I've known for almost 30 years. We NEVER talk about race. I actually quite like that, as it means you can just talk about stuff and it not be attached to race. On one hand, you could say it's quite a superficial relationship, but on the other, she knows where all the bodies are buried. Life is complex.

I've seen it with DP, too. Around 10-8 years ago (30+ years old) they all started to drop off. We had our first child 6 years ago and when we discussed godparents we had a range of black and white. We are going to christen our last child (sometime soon?!) and we didn't mention one white friend when discussing a possible selection. I asked him why not and he just shrugged his shoulders. I should interrogate more on that....

Was my post ok or not allowed? I thought this was a really interesting topic, from which I might be able to learn something to improve my relationships. Is that a valid reason to join or still not?

Firstly rice and peas is just fake waakye. It is not even comparable to Jollof.

Secondly, I'm still friendly with white people especially since I've become a dad and moved out of London. So I've got lots of new circles. But yes like pp there is usually a critical difference that causes us to drift apart.

The latest filter for me is footballers kneeling...

I've lost a few acquaintances but I did gain one 'on the Xmas card list' friend. He told me to tell anyone who complains about the kneeling to stop wearing poppies or fuck off.... We had some real real talk that day. We probably won't be good friends though because he's a miserable old bastard who prefers the company of horses to people (his words). I think he's just one of those people with too much empathy and life has worn him down.

I think the the general problem is empathy.

We live a world dominated by white culture, history, ideals, news and issues. So we can't help but empathise with white people. We can be good friends for them but the reverse is much harder since they need to have an active interest in us to relate to us on a deeper level.

OP, don’t have much to add as I’ve only ever had superficial friendships with white women. This was punctuated a few years ago when a group of us, all black women from uni, met up on holiday after many years and it was joyful the belly laughter we shared, finishing each other’s sentences, being totally at ease together.

Dc said they had never seen me so happy around friends.

That’s not to say you can’t have deep and lasting friendships with white women but I’ve never experienced it in the way I describe above and I suppose it’s easier to walk away from superficial friendships.

@SkedaddIe
I’m a foodie and so based on your opinion I’m for the first time going to try jollof rice although I make a wicked rice and peas .
What’s you favourite chicken recipe to go with it?

This thread is very sad. What happens for mixed race women? Can they have meaningful friendships with black and white women?

@yomommasmomma
You can have meaningful relationships with whomever you wish. My life experiences/personality/outlook etc are not yours so are not to be considered a general view.

@maggiethecat

You clearly have no idea what culinary blaspheme that is! Jollof is so good it is a stand alone meal in it's own right :)

Well, that's what they tell me. I'm Jamaican so i'm in there with the waakyee everytime. And yes @SkedaddIe, I've heard the before from DP who says he's sure what happened was when the Ghanaians reached Jamaica and wanted to make waakye, their impoverished environment meant they lacked peas and that is where rice and peas came from. SO offensive, but he's probably right! I personally always did kill my rice and peas with the peas, so much so my parents call it peas and rice. Also so offensive. Why don't people just leave me alone? Haaaaaaaaaaa!

It seems to be the general consensus on this thread that as black women get older they can no longer have meaningful relationships with white
women, because they do not agree/do not feel comfortable discussing different cultural approaches to family with them. Always hard to tell if the internet reflects real life though!

@yomommasmomma

I think it's possible but difficult. I think Black people opt to keep things superficial after one too many microagressions, outright racism or dismissive comments about issues that white people just seen through their own lens., and just different outlooks due to different experiences.

I agree with @Skedaddle that life is centred around whiteness making it easy for black people to be good friends to white people but it requiring real

But like another OP said her best friend of 30 years is white and knows everything about her but they never discuss race and it works for them.

Life is complex. Do we necessarily get everything from one friend? I don't think so. It's all shades of grey. The general consensus does seem to be moving more towards black friendships as we get older which probably just comes from being worn out and knowing you don't have to explain or justify experiences to another black person.

I think it's the cultural differences which can widen the gap, or potentially bring it closer together.

For example, my white friend is from a culture that places great importance on family, as do mine, so we are very similar in that respect, both having large families who spend time together inter-generationally for enjoyment.

This same white friend when we were in our teens would scream and swear at her parents, again, this is something I wouldn't even dream of doing!

However, being white she benefits from generational wealth, which while not impossible, was far less likely in Black families of past times, due to colonisation and our history.

My parents both worked for the NHS, and luckily came to England at a time when houses in London were reasonably affordable, so they have one, together with small pensions. However, I also subsidise them monthly with an amount MN would deem a decent wage to enable them to travel and do whatever they like with, because me getting to being a higher earner would not have been possible without them, and I want them to feel comfortable in older life. I would NEVER discuss that with my white friend, as I know she wouldn't understand. I do discuss this with my Black friends, and without exception they all help their parents (no-one discusses amounts), replicating what ours did in "sending money back home" when they first arrived.

I remember at one of my old workplaces, a white female colleague who was over 40 and single, talking about how when her parents visit they do a food shop for her. At the time, this woman would have been earning £70k, so I was Having worked since the age of 16, and moving out finally at 25 (I paid rent when I came back from uni), I would never expect my parents to pay anything for me.

There’s now a thread about this thread, ‘innocently’ asking if it’s racist...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4156829-can-white-people-ever-experience-racism?pg=12

She's saying she tried to discuss it here but her comment was deleted.

I'm just flabbergasted at the entitlement of throwing an "innocent" hissy fit over being excluded at BMN on a topic that you have no personal experience of.

I remember a poster coming on a thread where we were discussing being bullied as children/teens about our bodies by white women to accuse of bashing white women but the some of the same women investing in cosmetic procedures to get the same features they mercilessly teased us for (lips and butt in my case). I mean so we can't discuss our experiences and the discrimination we have faced?

I'm waiting for the discussion to segue into how the very idea of BMN is racist.

The only deleted comment was a disgusting one calling us racist for discussing our experience and that we are the ones who don't know how to be good friends to anyone.

I'm waiting for the discussion to segue into how the very idea of BMN is racist.

Yep, waiting for exactly the same. It’s already become a proxy discussion on friends, being pushed by the OP.

So black women are always the problem for discussing things that have happened to them right? That was the common theme in the BLM thread and this one too, actually any thread.

Honestly...if I talk! It's so frustrating...what dont people understand about this being a space for Black women. Does this happen on other boards? I'm sure this doesn't happen on adoption, craicnet or the LGBT space. Why oh why!?!! Being married to a Black man doesn't give you access to Black only spaces! Black women just want to talk amongst themselves but no it would appear that a white woman must just pop in to say XYZ or "me too" kmt. Take your me too elsewhere or post on the main board. I'm so happy to have this space here online but day by day it seems that it won't be a space for Black women to discuss in peace, it seems like every thread eventually turns in to a back and forth.