DBIL commits suicide - the fall out...

[thirtyfivepence]

He killed himself last week, leaving a copy of his will where it could easily be found (all his letters relating to his debt were left outside in the rain).

His will says he didn't want an autopsy - well that wasn't going to happen the way he wanted given the nature of his death.

He said he wanted to be cremated - which his parents reluctantly did. He also said he wanted his ashes interred at a particular place. His parents don't agree and want to buy a plot for them to go in when they pass and to put him in now.

Dh is the executor of the will and has said that they shouldn't proceed with the cemetery plot, at least until he has worked through the rest of the will.

Their argument is if they are paying that should trump what he wrote in his will.

Personally dh doesn't mind what happens but as his brother charged him with just the three instructions (as he had only debts - but that's another store) as the executor he has to respect his brother's wishes.

Everyone in the family is hurt and upset at dh - but he didn't make the will - their other son did. But of course they can't be angry at him because he is dead and so it goes on.

I am sorry you and your DH are having to deal with this. What a sad situation.

Is some sort of compromise possible whereby some of the ashes or maybe a wreath is laid at the place which was special to DBIL?

Then the remaining ashes, which are dear to his parents, can be kept.

Others may have experience of this and good ideas. I hope a way through can be found that is acceptable to the family but which does acknowledge the wishes of DBIL.

Personally I think that the feelings of the living trump the dead (not because of who pays though, but perhaps that is partly their anger at his suicide?). Your DBIL isn't going to care any more, but his family obviously do. Must be a very difficult time for everyone though, a little bit of a delay might help perhaps, or a compromise where some ashes are scattered and some go to the cemetery? It does seem a little unfair to specify exactly what you want and then leave no means to accomplish it.

I would usually say that the Will needs to be followed to the letter, but in this case, I understand why his parents want a plot - somewhere specific for them to go and mourn.

Sorry that you and your dh are in the middle of this, what an awfully sad situation for all of you.

One almost for, one against and one compromise - oh dear.

If he'd named his solicitor as his executer what would they do?

Surely there is no rush? THe ashes will keep. I'd leave it a while and give everyone a chance to come to terms with what's happened. But imo, I'd go with what the parents want, what nooka said. Fankly now bil doesn't care where he is, but his poor parents have lost their son in terrile circumstances - their wishes should also be taken into account.

I'd leave it a while, even a few months or longer

so sorry for your family's loss 35p

IMHO, the will should be followed - never been in this situation but I thought a will HAS to be followed? I'm assuming a solicitor would enforce it? they would WRT dividing up assets etc.

It would be really disrespectful to go against it anyway, I think. The idea that 'we are paying so we can choose to go against his wishes' is really nasty and makes me very uncomfortable.

AFAIK you can still get memorial plaques in cemeteries when there's nothing buried there. So they still have somewhere to mourn but DBIL's ashes are scattered as he wanted. HTH

Message withdrawn

So what's the point of a will? He knew he only had debts so the entire point of leaving it to be found was surely so he could have his wishes. He doesn't want his ashes scattered - just kept in the crematory.

Either way dh lets someone down.

And they are only meeting the difference between what they have and what the accident compensation pays for - if they go with his wishes the difference is less.

I think if he specifically wrote the will to ask for this particular arrangement, it's even more important to follow it. It clearly wasn't an afterthought when writing a bigger will - this was something he felt strongly enough about, otherwise with no assets he wouldn't have bothered!

as if it's not hard enough for you all losing your DBIL in this way.... your DH has to live with the decision he makes for the rest of his life. He's going to find it hard either way: following his brothers wishes and living with the hurt of his parents til they come round, if ever; or ignoring his brother's wishes and put the feelings of the living ahead of his brother's, and no doubt feeling guilty htat he hasn't respected his wishes. A compromise is probably the only answer - follow DBIL's wishes re the ashes, but perhaps buy a rememberence plot anyway - even if the ashes aren't buried there? My Mum regretted not asking for Dad's ashes (at the time, she didn't want to go through both a cremation and then burial of the ashes and she certainly didn't want them at home). A few years on she felt she wanted something to acknowledge his passing and bought a brick on a rememberence wall at the crem.

So sad to hear that you are having to cope with such a tough time. Is putting the ashes in the crematory a permanent thing? Would it be possible to follow your dBIL's wishes, on the understanding that when the first of his parents dies dBIL's ashes will be moved and reintered with theirs?

I have been through the sibling death scenario linked to the "issues" over the will scenario myself. It can get most upsetting.

I am not quite sure exactly where you are in the process. Have you had the post-mortem and the inquest yet because I thought this was automatic in the sad situation you describe.

I think PrettyCandles has come up with a good idea and I would go with that one.

He will tell the crem not to release them to anyone other than himself and show them the will. And then let everyone grieve and wait - rather than make a big performance now.

He's also had to tell them not to give all the crappy furniture etc. to charity as it was the collatoral for a loan.

He doesn't feel very popular right now. Except with me - I think he's being wonderfully loyal.

We have had a interim death cert. and samples from the autopsy have been sent away for testing. There will be an inquest in around 1 month.

There is no need to make a decision now,. As others have said, the ashes will keep. there is no reason why the ashes cannot be split so that a compromise can be reached,.

I am so sorry you are in this situation.

My heart goes out to you.

I was in a similar position last September when my DBIL took his life too.

Your DH is right, it is the will that should be taken into account as they are your DBIL's "last wishes" and they should be respected.

And whilst I partly agree with Nooka I do think that this should be about what your DBIL wanted.

Your ILs are angry and hurt and they want to feel in control and they want to do what is best for them, which is understandable, they have just lost a son.

So you have the interim death cert and you can now ask for the ashes to be released and as Executor, legally your DH is the only person that can agree to their release. I think he needs to make that point to the Funeral Directors quite soon.

Your DH needs to reinforce to his family that all of the actions he are taking are not necessarily his wishes or what he feels is best. He is doing what is legally required of him as Executor.

My DH is executor too and has had similar "issues" though his parents have actually been wonderful. His parents thought they were doing what was right "well Joan will take that / Bob will sell that off / we are going to keep that". Not in an aggressive, grabbing type way but in a way that they felt they were helping (it was their way of dealing with it so we all understood). But my DH had to gently say to them "maybe we need to think about this".

Your DH needs to do the same. Gently stand up for what is in the will and keep explaining that it is not his wish, but that of his DB.

I would hate to think that the wishes in my will would be ignored after I am gone.

And if you have your inquest that quickly you will be very lucky. We are still waiting for ours, it is next week which will be 10 months after the death.

He has phoned the funeral director today and told someone. I will remind him to mention it again tomorrow when the FD meets with the family.

I have also suggested that if he says something he knows will not be popular that he says. "I am saying this as executor, not as your son."

having mentioned it to the funeral directors, maybe your DH could ask their advice? Am sure they are used to dealing with this sort of thing? Everyone is dealing with raw grief at the moment, everyone might feel different in years to come, which is what they will have to live with (your DH as well as your ILs...) maybe this is something the funeral directors could help with??? ie if they know that in general people suffer if they don't honour the wishes of the departed, then it might be helpful for your ILs to know about that??? Maybe they don't get involved in that side of things at all but nothing to lose by asking???

i think prettycandles has a good idea.

follow the will for now, reminding family that as much as he'd love to accommodate him his first duty is as executor. in the first few months no-one are themselves and it's good to give it some time. then at a later date calmly talk about it and figure out a compromise.

hats off to you - you're handling this marvellously.

and sorry for your loss

Sincere symapthies. We went through a similar thing a few years ago.
The ripple effects went on for about 10 years after the event.
It was a constant reminder. It was enough to make members of the family ill.
Awful awful awful.

defo recomend a compromise. Will the funeral directors devide up the ashes for you, some to be distributed as BIL wanted, some to be put in a plot? The parents NEED some where to go to feel close to him. DH NEEDS to feel he has done the right thing.
Good luck, having been there, i dont envy you.

Am not 100% sure but I believe your DH has a legal duty to carry out the details of the Will as Executor - if he doesn't, he could be prosecuted for failing in his duty as an Executor. However, I think the only people likely to bring such a prosecution are interested parties - my Dad is dealing with such a situation right now where one of the Executors has completely failed in their obligation and the other one has failed by negligence, if you like - and a prosecution is pending (but my Dad had to bring the case).

So - if there is no one likely to insist that the Will is carried out to the letter, I suppose that it could be overturned - but it feels very wrong.

The parents could have a memorial plaque set in the cemetery without the ashes being there, surely?

I dunno. On one hand it is the last thing your husband can do for him - follow his wishes. So I understand why he wants to do it.

On the other hand - he's dead. It doesn't matter to him whether he's buried, cremated, or stuffed and put over the fireplace. He's dead.

But the family who mourn him? They're alive. And they're hurting. And funerals are for the living not the dead.

Perhaps your husband could sit down with them and say look, this is what he wanted. Are you saying to me that you do not want us to do what he wanted? You don't want us to respect his last wishes?

But at the end of the day - your husbands need to follow his brother's last wishes v everyone elses need to have the rememberance for them not for the deceased is a hard one.

Is it worth causing hurt and bad feeling among the living, to respect the wishes of the dead?

I just think that you should take more care of the living because it's too late once they're dead!

But your husband matters too. How he feels is just as important.

Talk talk talk. Try to get agreement.

This is a difficult situation, and I agree that your BIL wishes should be followed thou the fall out from doing so could be huge.
Is there a chance you could have the ashes split?

We had a similar situation when my husband died, as he knew for ten months that he was going to die it had been talked about a lot both with me and our best friends, MIL SIL and BIL all who had been abusive and difficult throughout steves illness and his death, they disagreed with all of steves wishes, they came to the funeral and were shouting out throughout the service, they later held a " private family memorial service" which myself and steves 3 children were not invited to, they got the guy doing the service to phone me and request the ashes, I said no as steve wanted his ashes to go to Lanzarote, I still have some of steves ashes the inlays haven't spoken to us for two years and at times I feel bad that they didn't get what they wanted but I did what I promised steve that I would do, at the end of the day I think I did it right thou I still get upset about it all.
I think if you can get a compromise that might be the way forward. Sorry for your loss and sorry you are having such a difficult time.
Funeral directors should be able to advise on this ours were very good when I explained the situation.

My db left me as the executor of what was a very contentious will. I didn't agree with some of his wishes but I followed them to the letter. He left me as executor as he knew he could trust me implicitly to do as he asked and I'm sure your dbil must have felt the same about your dh.

For both legal and moral reasons, I think you need to do as your dbil has asked. He placed his trust in your dh to do so.

We scattered my db's ashes under a tree, in a beautiful place, that we can go back to and I'm sure there could be some similar compromise worked out for your pil without disrespecting dbil's wishes.

Just to confirm - he does want his ashes kept in the crematory with a plaque with a specific message. There will be somewhere for his parents to go - just not the place they wanted to be buried too.

If they so want to be with him in death they could rewrite their wills to ask to be put in the same place.

Dh and I both have a solicitor named as executor to stop this happening.