Feeling strange

[Clarinet60]

This is a message for Moomin, really. I'm having trouble finding someone to talk to about a bizarre thing that is happening to me (well, I think it's bizarre anyway). My dad died when I was 4. I spoke to my mum on Christmas day and at the end of the call, she casually mentioned that my dad had been on TV in October on a program about Melson Mandela (he was involved in anti-apardheid demos), and the camera had settled on his face for quite a long time during footage of a march, in close-up. Given her quite a shock. She's in the process of getting a tape of it from ITV.

My issues are three-fold. I feel very strange about seeing him when we eventually get the tape, as it will be like seeing a ghost.
My mum never talks about him unless I bring the subject up and even then, she only answers direct questions, so you have to know the right questions to ask. (But you'd have to know what you were talking about then, in which case, why would you be asking, ARGHHH!) So I only have a child's memory of him, which includes smell, what foods he liked and what it felt like to ride on his shoulders. I don't know anything about the man, not even what his views were (aside from politics) what sort of music he liked, what they argued about, etc....
I'm not getting anywhere when I try to talk to friends. I think your dad being on TV when he's been dead for over 30 years is a big thing. They just seem to say, 'oh.' I understand that it can be hard to know what to say to bereaved people, it's just that the fact that nobody cares is very hard to take. I think that's the worst part about bereavement - nobody cares, everyone who knew them has gone. You are only allowed to talk about it for so long and NO LONGER.

Sorry, longer than I intended. I just wondered whether any of this resonates, or am I just barking?

Thanks suedomin. My mum lost touch with all the relations. I've explained further down in the thread about that ballsup. Yes, I can believe she may have forgotten some, but not all. Not about someone you were married to and had your only child with? She talks about previous relationships from her teenage years and has a phenomenal memory. No, I think she has different reasons, really. She is a person who wasn't able, for whatever reason, to bring up her own child herself. I feel enormous sympathy for her (I've felt like walking away myself at times, it's hard being a parent) but I just wish she would be more honest about things. Nothing is ever her fault. It's always circumstances which seem to push her into doing/not doing things.

robinw, I think this is indeed what happens. The surviving parent has to choose, in a way, between her/his new partner and what is healthiest for the children.

My dad never remarried - nor had a girlfriend after my mum died, and we're talking 26 years ago now. When we were young we'd fantasise about him bringing home someone to look after us but at the same time hope it wouldn't happen because what we actually wanted was our mum back!

I had a series of dreams when I was growing up, which moved in stages and have been very interesting to analyse. Each dream would be repeated every so often for about a year until it moved onto the next stage.

At first it was that my mum hadn't died at all - it was a big mistake and she was sitting in the chair in the kitchen (in my favourite green nightie!) and we'd all have a hug and say how silly it had been that we'd thought she was dead.

Then it'd be that we'd made the same mistake but we were all quite annoyed with her and she couldn't properly explain why she'd gone away.

The next two stages involved her actually purposely leaving us and not wanting us anymore and my dad telling us she was dead to save our feelings. In one dream, I'd discover this and find her and everything would be Ok, and in the other, it was like the last scene of Dr Zvivago (sp?). I'd be running along the street calling her and she couldn't hear me or didn't know who I was.

All of these seem to reflect the stages you go through when you grieve. I haven't had a dream about her since my teens.

I've felt very guilty this week. Dh's uncle has had a mild stroke and his family have (obviously) been very upset and involved in it all. I feel screaming at them - this is nothing! I've had to lose my mum and then my auntie and my cousin and nobody made this much fuss over me!!! When I mention my mum, they sort of gloss over it. I feel very selfish

Don't feel selfish, Moomin. I've felt like this. You feel like saying, 'yeah, so? That's nothing, try this!', don't you. It's very hard being an old hand at bereavement when you are so young. It definitely colours your reaction to other peoples' losses.
Your dreams are very interesting. I have sometimes wondered if it was all a lie and he didn't really die, but my grandparents would never have colluded.
Talking about glossing over things, when my granny died (who was like a mum as she brought me up) nobody seemed to expect me to feel anything. One relative said, 'now you'll have to look after your mum because she's just lost her mother.' Er, excuse me, so had I? Hello?

I know just how you feel. After my mum died my auntie and 2 cousins (one was her daughter, the other her daughter-in-law) stepped in and tried to give me some good female guidance in place of my mum. Therefore, I was very close to all 3 of them. As I said before, my auntie died a year ago and then one of my cousins died tragically in July. I completely lost it at work the day after my cousin died but when I explained it was my cousin some people looked at me as if to say "yeah, so?" and I felt so frustrated not being able to express myself and what she had meant to me. No-one should have to justify themselves and their grief to other people but somehow we feel we ought to. We're so bloody anal about death in this country.

You're right about being "veterans of bereavement" so young. I know it's coloured my view of life, but in some ways I'm glad about that. I know from experience that life is precious and very short. I'm sure that's helped me put my job into perspective and step down to work part-time. It's also made me appreciate those around me much more, esp my dad.

I am in a very similar situation to suedoninum's friend in that my father also died before I was born - my mother had only been married six months and known him less that 3 months before that so in terms of her life - it really was a very short spell - she does speak frankly to me about it when I ask, I always knew what had happened but she re-married when I was three and I have two half-brothers. I can understand that she can 'move on' from this, nine months in someone's life is a very short time, although she had a child by him: I have an ex-DH to whom I was married for two years but I hardly acknowledge him as part of my life now ..... sorry rambling a bit & not sure what point I'm trying to make!

I suppose what I am trying to say is that, certainly in my mother's case, the best way of dealing with a tragedy like that was to move forward and not have constant need refer to the situation.

Sorry, Droile, I hadn't seen your follow-up post (awful internet connex here atm) so I was right off target, wasn't I? Apologies again.

More generally, it's been interesting to see how death is dealt with out here in SE Asia - completely different to the UK. Reaction seems muted (one of the drivers lost his wife in childbirth and he took one day off work, to farm out his children to various relations) but in fact, people are not forgotten. The family pays regular visits to graves, esp at important religious festivals, to talk to the spirits and tell them the news. They even hold picnics - it's lovely to see the graveyards full of families with food, and parasols to keep off the sun, children running about, bright flowers everywhere. Former family members are still regarded as part of their community. There is more support, in general, to deal with loss because the community has a much bigger role to play in everyone's lives. You are not just part of your family, but part of your locality, which is part of your village etc. Everyone is important.

I think they would be astounded at our ways, as Droile puts it, of talking about the dead for so long and then NO LONGER.

Hi Lindy. I certainly don't want my mother, or anyone else, to constantly refer to it. To refer to it once or twice in a lifetime would be nice.
I don't think you can move on until things have been dealt with adequately.
On the other hand, she still hasn't scattered his ashes. She made it very clear that this was her job, some years ago, but jokes about it ocassionally, as if it's a thank-you letter she still hasn't got round to writing.

suedonim, it's OK.
BTW, I don't talk about my dad at all, only on here. I'm well aware that it's not the done thing after all this time. It's just that this TV footage has been almost life-changing for me, and I haven't even seen it yet. Actually, if ITV are going to do this for any other ancient Mandela stuff, there may well be footage of me on his shoulders, as we came home from a march one night and saw ourselves on telly. So you may well see the droile as a tot. (You can tell my mum hasn't got the internet yet, can't you. I'll delete this stuff in a while though, just in case).

Also actually, while I'm being frank, and on a thread that is soon to be no more, a friend of mine had a still-birth about 5 years ago. I've lost count of the people I've heard talking behind her back about how it's about time she moved on and stopped talking about it, and about how she shouldn't wallow in it. In truth, she only ever mentions her son when someone asks how many children she has. Huh.

Droile, that must have made the last episode of Cold Feet really hard for you!

I like the way death is dealt with in some other cultures - like suedonim's description of SEAsia - I think they do the same thing in Mexico? Have a Day of the Dead or something and parties in the cemetery? Consciously remembering them one day a year would be an improvement on the time limit that seems to operate here...

Moomin, I think you are a little bit hard on your colleagues at work - losing a cousin would not be a big deal to most people, and if they didn't know that she was like a sister, and that you had also lost her mother (your 2nd mother) and your own mother, then I can understand them being concerned about what looked like an over-the-top reaction. Of course justification shouldn't be required, but explanation does help others to understand (though I can see that you weren't in a position to give a calm explanation at the time!)

Hope talking about your feelings here is helping,

Sorry, you slipped 2 other messages in while I was slogging through mine! I meant the ashes.

Droile, what you relate in your latest post really shocked me. I don't feel I can speak with any insight on losing a parent, but to hear such callousness extended by others towards someone who has lost a child brought tears to my eyes. How could they be so cruel? You don't ever "get over" or "move on" from losing a child. You learn to live with it, as I guess your friend has.
I hope you rethink on asking for this to be deleted (although I can see why you might want to). I think this thread has been a moving and helpful forum for people to discuss and understand bereavement issues. Thanks for raising it.

There is a service in the Church of England
on 'All Souls Day' when people who have died (doesn't matter how long ago or recent) are mentioned by name - I went to one for the first time last year and found it very moving - although disappointed that there were only two of us in the congregation!

Droile - hope my previous posting didn't come accross as too blunt, I was just trying to describe the situation from my point of view. Fully appreciate how strange it will seem to see the TV footage.

Jahn, yes, the ashes. I thought it was hilarious, and very well done.
All souls day - that's Hallowe'en, isn't it Lindy? Mmm, nice. Better than nothing though.
Marina, thanks for that. Perhaps I'll just delete some of my posts.

Oh, good, I'm glad you thought it was funny, droile! (I didn't watch the whole thing, missed the funeral etc, just kept seeing Adam brushing ash off bits of furniture etc.)

All Souls is the day after Hallowe'en - Oct 31 is "All Hallows Eve", Nov 1st is "All Souls Day", presumably Hallows and Souls is the same thing. I didn't know that churches do what Lindy describes, pity it's such a little ceremony, it is a nice idea!

sorry I keep spelling your name wrong janh, doh!
That episode of cold feet was brilliant, especially the way adam tried to pull himself together too soon and cracked up. I loved it where rachel got in the taxi with him at the end.

I'm past being upset about the ashes but I am pretty angry on my dad's behalf. I know I'll end up with the job after my mum's day, so I'll save my feelings until then, but I think it is a major b*er.

janh - I wasn't expecting my work colleagues to rally round me. I know full well they're not telepathic. I was trying to say, as Droile said earlier, that people tend to gloss over any death that's not your immediate relative or one that happened a long time ago, unless they've experienced grief themselves. It was a statement of fact, not a moan about "poor old me, no-one understands me".

Sorry, Moomin, I didn't mean it like that - I just meant that I think people are probably more sympathetic than you might give them credit for.

I don't think people do "gloss over" a bereavement, anyway - or at least not a recent one. However much one is affected personally by something that happened 30 years ago or whatever, others are not going to behave as if it happened yesterday. If you bring the subject up, and make it clear that you are still affected by it, then I would be very surprised if nobody was sympathetic to you, but it's really not fair to expect everybody in your vicinity to be alert to your feelings about a distant loss - I thought we were talking about families who never acknowledge death, rather than the rest of the world.

My mother died 30 years ago, my father died last year on the same date - his death resurrected some of the grief felt when she died but I don't expect anybody other than family to fall over themselves feeling sorry for me because my mother died when I was 21.

If the death had a significant effect on you, then in some senses it doesn't matter when it happened. Moomin's loss of her mum will always affect her deeply, even when she is an old lady, because you only have one mum and it happened during the formative years. Sometimes the knock-on effects are endless. In a way, janh, your reply to moomin was illustrative of the very attitude I have been talking about.
But I know you didn't mean it to be.

No, I didn't, Droile - I do sympathise deeply with Moomin over the loss of her mother, and her aunt and cousin, and said so when she posted originally about losing her aunt and cousin - but she had given us more information than I think she gave her work colleagues, which did make it easier to share her feelings, which is the point I was hoping to make - every adult in the country will have been bereaved at some point, but everybody hasn't been bereaved in the same way, so doesn't react in the same way to the bereavement of others. Losing a parent as a child is impossible to empathise with.

Sorry - I will shut up and go away now.

My dad died just over 2 years ago, I still havent been able to watch any videos with him in. The mention of dreams really struck a chhord with me, for about 6 months after he died, I would have dreams about him, one being where I picked him and mum up from the airport in the middle of the night and they came back to my house and slept there. When I woke, I always immediatley thought that he was alive and in my house and it was horrid when I realised that he was dead. Sorry to turn this into a long post, but someone gave me this and I thought that it was wonderful and really true. It's by Brian Patten.

How long does a man live after all?
A thousand days or only one?
One week or a few centuries?
How long does a man spend living or dying
and what do we mean when we say gone forever?

Adrift in such preoccupations, we seek clarification.
We can go to the philosophers
but they will weary of our questions.
We can go to the priests and rabbis
but they night be busy with administrations.

So, how long does a man live after all?
And how much does he live while he lives?
We fret and ask so many questions -
then when it comes to us
the answer is so simple after all.

A man lives for as long as we carry him inside us,
for as long as we carry the harvest of his dreams,
for as long as we ourselves live,
holding memories in common, a man lives.

His lover will carry his man's scent, his touch:
his children will carry the weight of his love.
One friend will carry his arguements,
another will hum his favourite tunes,
another will still share his terrors.

And the days will pass with baffled faces,
then the weeks, then the months,
then there will be a day when no question is asked,
and the knots of grief will loosen in the stomach
and the puffed faces will calm.
And on that day he will not have ceased
but will have ceased to be separated by death.

How long does a man live after all?
A man lives so may different lengths of time.

sorry its so long!

That's lovely, lilibet, and I hadn't seen it before. I'll treasure it.

It is indeed lovely and has me crying now. I dreamed about my dad last night. It's a recurring dream in which my family and I are trying to find a nursing home for him (which, thank goodness, we didn't actually have to do) and they are all hideous, cruel places. I then wake up relieved that he is gone and we don't have to go through that scenario.

My dad was 91 and totally compos mentis until his last few days. Even though it was a good age and I do appreciate that, lots of people think that makes the loss easier to bear but it doesn't.

I agree with Marina, this is a wonderful thread on which to share such thoughts and feelings. It would be hard to have this sort of conversation with anyone in real life.

Great poem lilibet.

What can you say, though, when someone asks how many children you have? I mean obviously you don't have to tell everyone who asks a casual question about something so personal. But I remember throughout my pregnancy with dd people were always asking 'is this your first baby?' and if I said 'yes' I felt a terrible pang for being so disloyal to the lost baby. Maybe that's why Droile's friend always tells people about the stillbirth if they ask.

Marina, this must be a raw subject for you just now. When people discover you're pregnant again, some of them heave a sigh of relief and think 'that's all right then', as though the loss is wiped out.

In the end I think if only one or two people understand what you're going through, it's best to hang on to that, and not feel you have to explain it to others. For me it was one of my sisters who helped most - she likened it to having twins where one dies - you can't escape the grief even in the middle of the joy.

Droile, thank you for this thread and please keep as much as you can...you can see how much people value the chance to talk honestly about these very private things.