8week miscarriage isn't quite the same as delivering a full-term stillborn?

[Lira]

I'm really sorry for the upsetting nature of this post but i am heartbroken. Tomorrow is the third anniversary/birthday of my stillborn son who was born full term. I have phoned round my friends to ask if they are free to mark the occassion like we do every year. We go for lunch or something. We talk about him.

My friends have been quite evasive about it this year and finally one called this morning saying she thinks i should let it go. I can't keep letting this haunt me forever. She had a miscarriage at eight weeks a few years ago and i don't see her organising anniversary lunches etc. Her words.

I'm so sorry if this sounds cruel, but to me - yes, they are two horrible situations but not quite the same. Delivering a full term baby, and holding him, getting a photo of him etc is not on the same level as a eight week miscarriage. Just as i think someone losing a child - for example a baby to cot death - is again far worse than delivering a still born.

I understand that everyone has different emotional boundaries. So for some people, a miscarriage at 4 weeks could feel the same as someone losing a child to cot death.

Basically, i jusst feel quite embarrassed now and isolated. I want to celebrate Ethan's life no matter how short it was. But i've been made to feel it's insignificant. Am i being unreasonable thinking both of our children's deaths are terrible, but not quite on the same level?

[expatinscotland]

'My DH hasn't forgotten his little boy (none of us have, and I never even met him) but life has moved on and he's remembered in different ways now.

I do believe there has to come a time where you can celebrate what there WAS rather than grieve for what there was NOT. Does that make sense?

It's not healthy to expect your friends to mourn. It is acceptable to have them mark the occasion in some other way. Raise a glass, charitable donation etc., I'm not saying don't talk about it. '

Life moves on. Yes, that's definite because no one can freeze time. How is she expecting them to mourn? She wanted to celebrate his birthday!

Let's see, once, if that were your child you lost, would you be saying the same thing? I hope you never find out.

Yes, Lira, just stick to family and keep it private. There's a deadline on it all, you see. When you have to 'move on', apparently.

Better yet, why not find friends who get it?

[EverlongYouAreGoldAndOrange]

Your friends remember your less because they care about you.

[EverlongYouAreGoldAndOrange]

loss not less

[expatinscotland]

Lovely friends, Everlong! :)

I still send my friend Marion a birthday card on her son's birthday. He died 11 years ago when he was 32. She's been amazing when my own child fell ill and then died.

[hellymelly]

I am very sorry that you lost your baby boy. I do agree with you that a first trimester miscarriage is very distressing but not as traumatic as losing a full term baby. Maybe in part because until the second trimester most women are holding their breath slightly and hoping that the pregnancy will continue, but know that it might not. Growing a baby to term and seeing that baby is a different thing to go through. For the former it is often that hopes for the baby and for the future are crushed, but with the latter you have a visible little person to mourn which is harder I'm sure. (I've had an early miscarriage, but not a stillbirth).
I do think though, that friends will find it very hard to understand your ongoing grief unless they have been through the same thing, so perhaps now is the time to do something private with your DH, mark the time in some way -something to do with the number 3 perhaps, planting three trees, or releasing three lit lanterns into the sky.

[frasersmummy]

and the more we talk about these things the more people will realise what support they can give to friends who have these terrrible tragedies

as long as its hidden away and not spoken about people wont know what to do..

see how its got quieter on here since the thread was moved... i rest my case...

[onceortwice]

No, Expat - I don't know how it would feel. And, I agree, I hope I never find out. I know enough to know you do know how it feels.

But, this summer, I did Lands End to John O'Groats with my two (then) preschoolers to raise money for Claire house, where a friend's little girl died. Her dad wanted to do something positive so set about raising funds.

I have also recently met a lovely lady who is trying to ban glass bottles from nightclubs etc,. after her husband was fatally stabbed.

What I am saying is: At some point, you say: I was blessed with this amazing person in my life. It wasn't long eough and I'm determined to make a legacy they personally didn't have time here on earth to achieve.

Look, I'm really not that articulate. What I am saying is (from someone who doesn't have first hand experience, so I can never really know what to say / how it feels etc) no one is expecting to forget, but perhaps there is a better way to remember.

Expat - I have so much respect for you so I do hope I haven't offended.

[Whatevertheweather]

Oh Lira I'm so sorry for the loss of your little Ethan. 3 years really is no time at all. I am really sad for you that your friends couldn't put their own feelings aside for one day to have lunch with you and allow you to talk about Ethan. I have just been through the first anniversary of my daughters death - it's unimaginably hard.

Those saying she should grieve more privately now - how dare you When you have lunch with your friends do you never discuss things that happened years ago, good and bad? Lira wasn't asking them to go to the cemetery/attend a rememberence service she was asking them to go for lunch they should have been able to do this for her no matter what their own personal history.

As for mnhq moving a thread about baby loss to bereavement again Shame on you. Why is it death can be talked about in every other topic except if it's the loss of a baby. FFS. I see threads in chat/relationships/Aibu about parents, grandparents, partners, friends dying, never a suggestion that the thread get moved. Even the death of an older child seems more acceptable. But stillbirth seems to be quickly shunted to bereavement every sodding time.

Sorry Lira rant over. I hope you can spend tomorrow honouring Ethan the way you would like to xx

[JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar]

What a shame that this thread was moved. I couldn't agree with you more, frasersmummy.

[CailinDana]

Your friend was nasty. Just plain nasty and I'm so sorry she was so awful to you.

People talk such bollocks about how "we just want to help" and "I support my friends" but when it comes to it a lot of people just want to look after themselves and don't want the hassle of helping others.

You lost a child, only three years ago. A very short time ago you suffered the worst loss a person can experience. And your shits of friends are comparing it to a miscarriage (which is horrible, but nowhere near the same scale) and telling you you should be over it. I am actually furious on your behalf.

You are actually being a very good friend to them by telling them exactly what you need. You need them to be there for you for one meagre day out of their lives. And they've said no. So now you know where you stand. You've asked for a very simple easy bit of help and they're not interested. In fact they believe you have no right to feel the way you feel.

In your shoes I would have to wash my hands of these "friends". Devastating, but there is no way I could look them in the face again without wanting to punch them.

I am so sorry for your loss and I hope you find at least one true friend to mark Ethan's birthday with you.

[onceortwice]

I agree with Frasersmummy too.

[expatinscotland]

'I do think though, that friends will find it very hard to understand your ongoing grief unless they have been through the same thing, so perhaps now is the time to do something private with your DH, mark the time in some way -something to do with the number 3 perhaps, planting three trees, or releasing three lit lanterns into the sky.'

Good grief (no pun intended). She wanted to celebrate with people she thought were friends. And if they are, they'd get that, not label it 'ongoing grief' or tell her to shove off do something private, light lanterns and give to charity. She might already be doing that. She wanted to have lunch, since obviously she can't give him a birthday party which she'd have invited them to.

[Mrscog]

Op - of course you should commemorate the day however you like, and I think your friends have been very insensitive. I am suprised to be honest, as I think there is always an awkwardness around people who have had a terrible berevement, and I personally would welcome a friend being so open about how they would like support.

I hope you find some more supportive friends/family to mark the occasion with. xx

[Thelobsterswife]

Onceortwice I really think you need to read your posts back and try and put yourself in the position of someone who has had a stillborn baby to reconsider whether you should be telling them what to do and whether what you are saying is hurtful. I think it is.

[CailinDana]

Onceortwice - what do you think is wrong with having a lunch with friends to commemorate a lost child? Is it not "worthy" enough, or something? Does the OP have to be raising funds or campaigning for something in order for her grief to be more acceptable to others?

[expatinscotland]

'What I am saying is: At some point, you say: I was blessed with this amazing person in my life. It wasn't long eough and I'm determined to make a legacy they personally didn't have time here on earth to achieve.'

Maybe she already is. She wanted to have lunch to celebrate.

Gees, glad I have friends in real life who enjoy remembering our child and don't put a time limit on that.

[LibrariansMakeNovelLovers]

Sorry to hear of your loss :( Your friend was insensitive, it is up to you whether you move on or not and how you do that (I'm not condoning her comments at all but I wondered if they have they been trying a long time or something. It sounds like she might be struggling.)
I hope you find your own way of celebrating your baby's short life.

[LolaThePregnantFlyola]

I am truly Sorry for your loss OP

But i think in this situation, it is quite possible that your friend or friends no longer feel comfortable meeting up for this, probably because it is not 'theirs' anymore, fact is that many people say they will ''never forget'' or they will be there for you, but without you reminding them it would be another day in the week and not marked on the calendar.

I think your friend was insensitive in what she said, but, and this is a guess.
maybe they feel they don't know him as a child, you say you talk about him when you go out, but i'm guessing they think 'but we have already done that', because they didn't notice the tiny freckle on his cheek or the way his birthmark was or how adorable his hairline was, or the way his nose was perfect and he had a little indent on his chin.
In the way people would get bored if i spoke about my son (who is here) in the same way, they don't see why it matters because they aren't his mum.

Start doing something with those who wish to be involved i bet you find it more enjoyable, because chances are if they want to be there 3 years on then they really care

If they no longer wish to go then you shouldn't make them feel guilty, but you really don't have to let it go, and to ask you to do so is wrong.

But stop comparing, it's pointless for you and everyone both are horrid one may be more painful but be careful to stop minimizing other peoples experiences, it's not nice and the thread title is horrible, you shouldn't be so insensitive whilst posting about someone being insensitive however emotive for you, it is not fair.

sorry, i have tried to be as nice as possible, but your thread title has upset me and i am sure others

[Salbertina]

Lira- am so sorry for your ongoing loss of baby Ethan and your crap friends
As someone who's had a m/c but not a stillbirth, I completely agree with you, who wouldn't?
Sadly in some v stupid way she may think she's helping you?? People tend to shy way from grief or loss wren they feel it's no longer appropriate/timely whatever.. We're all so fed the positive thinking, live for the moment line..makes people callous and rather reductive at times IMHO.
How do you want to mark it now? Special lunch w Dh rather than them??

[Lougle]

I'm sorry that you are even having to think about these things, Lira, instead of thinking of how to celebrate your DS being 3.

However:

"I have phoned round my friends to ask if they are free to mark the occassion like we do every year. We go for lunch or something. We talk about him."

I'm wondering if you have seen this as 'like we do every year' whilst your friend has seen it as 'we did that last two years, as Lira had such a hard time.'

[onceortwice]

But, the trouble is, I CAN'T put myself in that position. By GOD, I know how lucky I am to utter those words. I do. But I still can't ever understand how it feels. Saying how I think it might feel is (to me) even worse, because I can't know. ANd even trying to say I could is (again, to me) trivialising how totally devastating it must be.

ALl I can do is offer my opinion in that I would find it much more fitting if I were asked to do something positive to mark a friend's baby. I would find it rather difficult to be expected to have lunch and talk about what happened three years ago (that's not to say I wouldn't be more than happy to go to lunch to LISTEN, but I would find it hard to talk about the child. Sorry I would)

Again, I would like to reiterate that (i) I am not trying to piss anyone off (ii) I have no first hand experience of child loss but hopefully I can at least explain why people don't really like to talk about it.

I haven't ever lost a child. I hope to God I never had to change that statement. ANd, I guess, sometimes you don't want to admit just how fragile life is.

[Thelobsterswife]

Why would it not be marked on her friends' calendars? I remember all my friends' children's birthdays?

[expatinscotland]

Yes, Lira, special lunch in private with your husband and family. You're reached the time bar on your loss, apparently.

Find some new friends who don't see celebrating your child as something that has a statute of limitations.

[MiaAlexandrasmummy]

lira perhaps you could share this beautiful piece of writing with your friend, and see if it resonates with her as well.

PLEASE SAY THEIR NAMES

The time of concern is over. No longer are we asked how we're doing. Never are the names of our children mentioned to us. A curtain descends. The moment has passed. Life's slip from frequent recall. There are exceptions: close and compassionate friends, sensitive and loving family. Still look. Still ask. Still listen. Thank God for them. For most, the drama is over. The spotlight is off. Applause is silent.

But for us the play will never end. The effects on us are timeless. What can be said, you ask? Please say their names to us. Love does not die. Their names are written on our lives. You may feel that they are dead. We feel that they are of the dead and still they live. They ghost-walk our souls, beckoning in future welcome. You say, "They were our children"; we say "They are". Please say their names to us and say their names again. It hurts to bury their memory in silence. What they were in flesh is no longer with us. What they are in spirit stays within us always. They were of our past but they are part of our now. They are our hope for the future. Please understand we cannot forget. We would not if we could.

We know that you cannot know, yesterday we were like you. Understand that we dwell in both flesh and spirit. We do not ask you to walk this road. The ascent is steep and the burden heavy. We walk it not by choice. We would rather walk it with them in the flesh, looking not to spirit worlds beyond. We are what we have to be. What we have lost, you cannot feel. What we have gained you may not see. Please say " their names" for they are alive. We will meet them again, although in many ways we've never parted. Their spirits play light songs, appear in sunrises and sunsets. They are real and shadow, they were and they are.

Please say their names to us and say their names again.
They are our children and we love them as we always did.
More each day.

[IceBergJam]

OP, did not read all the thread , because I don't want to read some of the responses. I think your friend was being slightly cruel. Death is a natural part of life, and I think its natural for people who were not directly impacted to forget how painfully it can be, but that is no excuse for a total lack of compassion . Marking the birthday or day of loss of a lost child or any other loved one is part of the healing process , but is also a way of keeping them close . It doesn't do any damage.

Do you have another friend or family you can remember him with ? Is there a place you would have liked to have taken him, that you can go to ?

For what its worth , I had a MC at 9 weeks. It was devastating. But I feel ok about it now . My daughter although healthy now , was nearly lost at birth . That moment when the gas mask was hovering over my face , so that they could knock me out , and I though I'd wake up into a nightmare was the most terrifying and sadest moment of my life . I still feel the shock today. The earlier MC did not compare . You are right , a stillbirth and an early MC are totally different .