Hideously behaved 4 year old

[cactoosh]

Hello, am new to MN and would appreciate your advice. DS1 has just turned 4 last week and due to start school in Sept. Seems to be happy about it. He has always been a spirited child and his behaviour had been about average for his age, apart from 15 month biting phase which ended around 2 and a half.

However, for the past month it has gone rapidly downhill. He has started scratching, hitting and spitting at anyone (but mainly me and DS2 who is 2.5) who has something he wants, asks him to do something he doesn't want to do, or if DS2 snatches toy etc. If I confiscate whatever he has hit with (eg toy) he says things like "give it back smelly or i will bite you". DS2's face is absolutely covered in scratches. We have no doors in the house that he cannot open so I cannot separate the boys for long. DS2 also takes pleasure in winding DS1 up which doesn't help, and he is also learning all of DS1's behaviour now. At preschool, his behaviour is not always great but nowhere near as bad as at home.

I try to keep my calm but very hard when he is having tantrums at least 2 times a day and the hitting is non-stop. Am v ashamed to say I have smacked him and shouted and these have not helped. He then just cries and cries and follows me around and when I try to get away for a minute to calm down, he will not leave me alone which makes me feel like I am totally losing the plot (which I obviously am). I've lost all control of the situation and he has no respect for me. Not sure I have much for myself anymore as I feel like I have failed big time as a parent.

He is really lovely and loving if I am on my own with him. I have tried all sorts of techniques to solve the problem but probably not consistently enough. I am at the end of my tether - HV suggested positive parenting which I am trying to implement but I cannot ignore such vicious behaviour. Please help!

PS Sorry to ramble!

Cactoosh it sounds like you're having a rough time. We all do things we're not proud of from time to time, because our tethers are not infinite and we're human. That doesn't make you a bad parent, and you have not failed. Consistency is definitely important, but in order to be consistent you have to totally believe in what you're doing. Advice from others can be useful (although not always ), but personally I've found I have to cherry pick from my gut feelings, books, other parents, whatever, and then bore DP to death using him as a sounding board while I work out what I really want to do (discounting tying DD1 to the bed to give everyone a break, even if that IS what I really want to do).

This isn't advice, as I don't feel qualified to give that, but it is a sharing of what has worked for us, if that doesn't sound too poncey.

I try to look at it from DDs point of view. I know that sounds all huggy, but it has several times made me sit back and think, actually, have I asked her what the problem is? Have I set out, when we're all calm and not shouting/hitting/whatever, what my problem is with the behaviour? Have I asked her for her ideas for solving it? (good for things like toy-sharing issues, tantrums over how/where to clean teeth etc) Sometimes DD has brilliant ideas for solving problems that I would never have thought of. Equally she has mad and totally unworkable ones but that's part of it too, to make sure she's listened to even if I can't actually make it happen.

So, on that theme, wild over empathising. 'I can see you're REALLY angry about that. How about beating the shit out of that sofa instead of your sister?' Obviously I paraphrase, and I'm aware just how deeply American-therapist it all sounds and yes, I felt like a total fraud doing it for the first time and no, it doesn't work particularly well any more but the first few times she gave that sofa hell and ended up giggling, and then she kind of got over the angry ranting phase.

My own behaviour - I'm very aware that we have our most rubbish days when I'm tired, grumpy, stressed etc. DD is a nightmare when I am too. So I have to force myself to be the grown-up, to be kind, to remind myself that kids learn by example. And yes I've generally lost the plot and have thrown something by the time I get a grip on myself again, but at least it's a way back from the brink. Oh, and making sure that one, three, five explosions don't = a write-off day. I try to put each meltdown (hers, not mine) behind me and start afresh each time. Otherwise I really would have killed her by now.

Btw, it's all very well the HV talking about positive parenting, but did she give you any tools to help do it? And you can't ignore dangerous behaviour - violence (against people or property) is non-negotiable however positive you're being. When people talk about not 'rewarding' bad behaviour I believe they mean not giving lots of attention as a result of it, not completely ignoring it, you've still got to intervene if someone is getting hurt. DD has only really taken her frustration out physically on me or DP, in which case I've manhandled her to a safeish place, told her (calmly-ish) that I'm putting her on the bed so she won't hurt herself, that I can't let her hurt anyone else, including me, and I'll be downstairs when she wants to talk to me.

Sorry that's really rambley cos I know DD2 is waking up - got to go. Good luck.

Hi I have got two DS's also. Both DS1 was 4 in April and DS2 is 2.5yrs.

I really empathise with how you feel at the moment. My DS1 has been very difficult the last few months - it feels as if he wont take no for an answer and always wants to get his own way. I feel as if he should have grown out of this behaivour by now - he is not a toddler anymore.
I have been told by various people (and I think I am in agreement with them) that he is just getting very restless in the last few months before he starts school. His nursery have said that all the school leavers start being difficult around this time of year. They are aware that a big change is coming soon - which they dont necessarily understand the implications of. And also they just need a more challenging environment.

Good luck

I have could have written this post! Infact I have written a somewhat briefer post. My 4year old is exactly the same with me dh and my 2.5 year old ds. I shall watch this with interest.

I think it could be partly hormonal too - don't 4 year old boys normally experience some form of testosterone surge?

Has there been much talk about the impending changes (i.e. starting school in 2 months time)? Are nursery going on about it? I know that the final term at my DCs nursery is spent 'preparing' them for school - which is mainly a good thing, but can also be a bit scary for them - he could be a bit freaked out by the enormity of it all and worried about what's going to be expected of him but not able to verbalise it...
They seemed to do a lot of work on 'social skills' (sharing, caring and all that) in the first term at DS's school, and I imagine that's fairly universal, so with any luck once school starts it will settle down a bit.
What's he like when you get together with other children his age?

Mij, thank you so much for your post. It's so nice to get an "outsider's" point of view but from someone who is actually going through the same stuff! You have reassured me that I don't always need to follow everything to the letter but follow my gut too (I have always been rubbish at remembering to listen to my own instincts!)

Redcess and Springchik, it is just nice to know that other children are exactly the same. Let's hope it is just a phase and things will slow down a) once the school holidays start and b) when they start school and have other things to worry about rather than how to inflict pain on everyone else!

Runoutofideas, yes I've heard about the testosterone surge but no one seems to know how long that affects the little b*ggers for!

Thanks to you all! I'm generally feeling a bit more positive now and over the past few days have tried to wake up feeling happy rather than dreading the day ahead. This does seem to have helped although things have still got a long way to go...

Maniacbug, apparently DS1's nursery have calmed down on all the talk of school because they have noticed a downturn in general behaviour. The new school do seem very keen on behaviour so hopefully if he does try anything they will deal with it effectively. He is generally better with children his own age than he is with DS2 but still doesn't think twice to push/snatch etc.

I've decided not to tell his new teacher about his behaviour because I don't want him to get a name for himself before anything's even happened. Anyone else think differently?

This sounds like my son too - and I've also noticed a link between his behaviour and mine, so am trying really hard to remember I'm the adult.

There's some really good advice here, especially in Mij's post.

You're not alone, cactoosh - I don't think your DS sounds any worse than mine at all, and at times I've felt like I'm losing the plot too, but hang in there - I think I'm starting to see some improvement, so hopefully you will soon too!

No, cactoosh I think your instincts are right: don't mention it! New start, clean slate and all that. And anyway, he might turn out to be like my DS (just coming to the end of Reception) who is, apparently, an 'angel', a 'joy to teach' and in his own words 'NEVER naughty at school, mummy'. Hmm, so how come you save it all for us, then? 'Well, if I was good at home I would have to be naughty at school, and then I would have to go and see Mrs X [head teacher]'. A 5-yr-old's infallible logic. I can only assume that Mrs X is far scarier than me!
We had a difficult year with sibling rivalry between DS and DD when they were about the same age as your (same age gap). They can still squabble horrendously, and physically fight, snatch toys, say silly things to upset one another - usually when one or both are tired or hungry - but this first year at school DOES seem to have made a difference (plus also obviously the fact that they're both a year older now), and their relationship is developing (for the better) all the time. Once your DS starts school and is doing full days it will mean they'll have time apart, for one thing - my DS and DD look forward to seeing each other after school (cf. weekends, when they're driving each other - and me - up the wall by lunchtime) and he'll be learning so much, making new friends, growing up and having so much fun... Good luck - I hope next year makes all the difference for you!

Oh, and I forgot to say that DS1 and DD seem to be getting on better since the arrival of DS2 last year as well, so that's always worth bearing in mind as an option

ha ha maniacbug, there is nothing like DS1 right now to act as a VERY effective contraceptive!!!

just to let you know you arent alone.

when ds1 turned 4 it was almost as if a switch had flipped in his head, he became really defiant and badly behaved.

a friend's dd turned four a couple of months ago and i had her on the phone asking if DS had 'changed' a bit when he turned 4. i had to laugh. she felt so relieved when i told her about ds, she though she had done something to set it all off.