Pleae help me control my 4 year old.

[KorkiiEffenkrakers]

I'm having a really bad day today which has been one of many bad days recently. I am totally at the end of my tether with DS1. He is 4 and a half and very bright. He is not in school/nursery etc but starts school in Sept. I think he is ready for school (ie bored) but obviously it is too late to set him up with anything now.

His behaviour of late has been utterly FOUL (not always - just when he doesn't get EXACTLY his own way). Eg this morning he asked for a yogurt - because it wasn't the flavour he wanted, (we had none of those ones left) he flung it across the room. It was one of those crunch corners so the wee balls went everywhere. I gave him a dustpan and brush to clear it up but he refused.I then put him on the naughty spot for 3 mins (which never has any effect on him). I then told him he could come off as he said sorry etc and told him he needed to clear up the mess. He refused again so I took away his lego. This went on and on until all his toys were gone. I then told him I was taking away his day out with me on sat if he didn't clear the mess away, again he refused. In the end I just gave up and told him how disappointed I was with him.

It is always like this. He does not respond to reward charts etc (says he'd rather be naughty) and will accept every punishment going rather than give in and do something. He's just incredibly willful (like me actually) with a very strong personality.He just wants everything his own way.

What on earth do you do with a child like this? I swear to God I have run out of ideas. He gets loads of positive praise/treats/time with mum and dad and can request individual time with either of us any time he wants. What else can we do?

Oh I should just say that things are compounded by the fact that we have a baby of 9 months (whom he mostly is great with) and that he was diagnosed in Jan with nocturnal (mild) epilepsy and is currently on 2 different types of medication. I think the medication is making him tired therefore worse but the behaviour is essentially still his bad behaviour IYSWIM. Another factor may be that he is very bright and does want a LOT of stimulation and attention. All the epilepsy people etc think he is wonderful as he really thrives on one to one attention and actually a lot of the time he is really loveable and cute. they put his behaviour down to him being 'so bright'. But surely that's not the point? he should do what he is told by his parents regardless.

I am so exhausted today. The yogurt incident was just one of many and I am being really ground down by it all. I am ashamed to say I smacked him on the bum this morning as I couldn't think what else to do with him. It actually stopped him in his tracks and he apologised but it is not how I want to parent (I was abused as a child) so I ended up weeping hysterically down the phone to my husband.

Sorry this is so long but I am so sad. I love my son so so much. I don't want to feel this anger towards him. He is already having to go through the whole idea of having epilepsy (though this is NOT why he is being so naughty). Please someone tell me what to do as I feel I have tried everything.

Will post this in chat too as I think I need some ideas for tomorrow.

Do you usually give in to him easily? Or does your son know how to get to your 'soft spot'?
Did your son see how guilty you felt for smacking him?
Does he do as he's told by dad?
Just trying to get more info..
I use the 'naughty spot' with my DD and it actually works really well, she hates it because she knows she has to sit alone and she isnt allowed to play or talk to anyone.

He is the same for myself and my husband. I never give in to him. We are very similar in that neither of us likes to back down. He knows I felt guilty about smacking him as I spoke to him about it later and apologised to him for it. The naughty spot just does not work for him.

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but I don't think threatening losing the day out on Saturday will have worked. Firstly, it's a LONG way away, and not really something in his immediate future (and he won't remember the incident on Saturday), and secondly because you now have nothing else to use as a carrot all week. You also have to make sure he doesn't get the day out now too, which might make Saturday a little tedious!

When he has time out, is he still nearby? I wonder whether having the time-out spot somewhere away from other people (e.g. hall, another room, bedroom) might make it less attractive. Personally (now, bear in mind DD is only 14mo so I'm talking from an idealist perspective), I think if he'd refused to clear the mess after the time-out I'd have returned him to time-out. After the 5th, 6th, 7th, 23rd... time-out he might have begun to get the message! The problem is that you are trying so many different strategies - he may be getting confused. Choose one and stick to it - every time he crosses the line, use the same punishment, whether it is time out or taking toys. However, bear in mind that taking toys away may then make him more bored and make your life more difficult.

Hope this doesn't sound too idealistic (and you can come and share your wisdom when I post an identical post in 3 years time!)

Seems like a complex situation tbh.
I'm sure someone with a little more exp. in this sort of situation will comment soon though..
Not sure if apologising to him was a good idea...or maybe others may disagree?
I assume you didnt smack him hard? He stopped and apologised because he was simply shocked. I think knowing you wont smack him maybe giving him the rope to be naughty?
I assume your DH never smacks him either?
I'm not saying you should smack him but I'm still of the opinion that a little tap on the bottom when a child is becoming 'out of control' does the trick.
I wouldnt beat yourself for it, sounds like you wont ever do it again.
It's really hard to give advice over the net.
Have you been to your doctor, see if he cant refer you to someone?

Have you ever tried alternatives to 'punishments'as you say yourself that they don't work? There is a really good book called 'Unconditional Parenting' that explains how ineffectice the whole punishment/reward thing is.

If I was taking away toys and he was just carrying on I think I would change tack rather than work through all his toys. Have you tried things like making it a game, getting him to race you etc? Letting him choose something funny to clean up with to make it seem more out of the ordinary? I know you may feel he'd done something wrong and should therefore clean up in a serious way but I think you have to choose one goal at a time. You could have talked about the throwing after maybe - or maybe before tackling the cleaning.

I know how hard it is, I have clashed with ds (3) many a time but I try not to 'lock horns' and, although on one level I totally agree with you that a child should do as a parent says, experience is teaching me it doesn't really work like that so I'm trying to work from mutual respect. Sometimes I do just lose it and shout but I then feel crap and it doesn't work!

Sorry if I'm waffling or being patronising, ds2 is sleeping about 4 hours a night lately!

Good luck

You shouldn't have had a big long extended chat about how awful you feel about smacking him. Apologise quickly, don't angst in front of a four year old.

As for his behavior, it's blatant attention seeking, try one two three magic.

The sanction is time out. STRICT time out, no interaction, no attention, no conversation.

so

"Ds, clean up that yoghurt, please, it's naughty to throw food."

"no"

"Ds, I will count to three and you will start to clean that youghurt or you will go into time out. One."

"no"

"Two"

"no"

"Three"

"NO!"

"TIME OUT."]

Lead or carry child to time out area. Set timer for four minutes.

After four minutes, go back to child.

"Clean up that yoghurt, or you stay there on your own. One....Two....Three...."

And just keep going.

Remove yourself from the entire situation whilst he is in time out.

Also, praise him at every genuine opportunity you get. Every time he fetches a nappy, puts his shoes on, asks for something nicely - praise.

Punishments do work when you have a child who has got used to the idea that they can do as they please, and you need to shake them out of that idea.

Unconditional parenting is fine if you don't mind your children knowing that they can do as they please with no real solid consequence, regardless of how you feel about it.

I am not advocating beating your child to death with rods of steel, I am saying that he's a little insecure right now, and naturally attention seeking - he needs MORE security in the form of knowing that one action always has the same reaction (ie say no to mummy = sit in time out) - and he needs more positive attention and the removal of ALL attention for bad behavior.

You gave him a big long discourse on how sorry you were tha6 his behavior had been so appalling that you had lost your temper and smacked him. You carried on with reams of seemingly unrelated punishments, more talking, more taking things away, more talking, Mummy's getting crosser, I'm the very centre of attention now and Oh! more talking!

You might as well have given him an icecream!

Unconditional parenting is absolutely NOT about children doing as they please, but consequences are linked to the real world rather than artificial things like time out. The book explains how punishments divert children's attention from their behaviour and its real consequences/effect on other people and on to just wanting to avoid punishment.

Anyway, it's a complex topic and here is not the place to debate it!

OP, hope you find an approach that works for you.

I could take every toy away from ds and it wouldn't alter his behaviour. he is also very wilful.

What I have found is that he hates being sat on the stairs and ignored. I have to say that four minutes as per supernanny has no effect on him. He needs longer to realise that his tantrum is getting him nowhere.

He then has to say sorry and do as he was originally asked. If he doesn't he has to go back on the stairs.Then we start again and repeat until he does as he is told.

The sticker chart is now working - but we just concentrate on certain chores that(tidying up) that we always have a battle over. He choose the reward though and if he wants a big trip out then he has to build his stickers up over a few weeks - or more. But he's bright enough to understand that its a big treat at the end of it so he has to have lots of stickers.

I agree that you have to praise every. single. little. thing. in order to get a child this age to seek positive reinforcement.

From what you have described in the OP, he is getting a lot of attention for sustained attention for negative behaviour. He is probably doing a lot of small positive things all the time which go unnoticed.

Scenario: You walk out the front door and while locking it he keeps walking towards the front gate. Say: DS, wait at the gate please. As soon as he stops, praise. (Start with things that you know he is already good at doing anyway as a way of kickstarting it.) At first you may want to go OTT a bit with a kiss or cuddle too but that can be scaled back later.

Try your best to underplay a negative like the yoghurt thing. Yes, it has to be cleaned up but maybe instead of making it a battle front, try defusing it first. (you are the adult here and have more options available to you even if you think you don't) Try, something silly like, Oh, my, goodness, I didn't think those would fly all over the room. Can you help me pick them up before ants/spiders/ds2/daddy finds them on the floor and eats them. Then he is your helper, and praise for helping you and praise again when you sit down and job is done. And if you still want to ham it up, phone dh and tell him what a great helper you had today, in front of ds.

Maybe that is too simplistic for you but maybe you can think outside the box and apply the principle to a scenario which occurs time and again. And if you get it wrong this time, think again how you can tweak it the next time the same situation occurs again.

By the time you have removed the third thing for throwing the yoghurt he probably no longer realises that he is still being punished for the yoghurt and he can only feel you pushing him so he pushes back.

If you don't think the scenario can be passed off as an accident, the other tack can be to downplay the event. Quietly tell him in that case you can see that he isn't really hungry so he can have some water or juice instead. But no yoghurt. Then quietly ask him to help you tidy it up. A pause and if he doesn't help then start yourself on your own.

Low tones and deliberate talking (gives you a chance to pick your words) have a better effect.

I find with dd, she may then come and hover. It was her way of showing that she is feeling remorseful and then grab the opportunity to make friends again.

Try not to label the behaviour as 'naughty' as tempting as it is. It teaches kids which things have wind-up-value. Just state that food is too important to throw away.

I know exactly how you feel. Your DS sounds exactly like DS1 who is nearly 4. He too is bright in some ways - loves to learn new things - but has no concept of cause and effect. If I threaten to take something away he is still surprised and upset when I actually do - and says "I don't want to be naughty/hit my brother/etc." after the event. Have recently found that removing him from the room where I am is quite effective - have tried sticker charts (haven't noticed any improvement) and the naughty step (either he won't stay on it, or DS2 goes and joins him) and excessive praise when he does something good also works a bit. It's really hard when you have more than one child - often it's the cause of some of the issues - DS1 is always being mean to DS2, wants attention when I'm feeding DD, etc - and you can't always deal with the problem immediately.

On the plus side, DS1 has just decided to start dressing himself in the mornings (it always used to be a battle) - so I am praising him like mad and hoping that continues.

Sorry I've not got the solution - but I just wanted you to know that you're not alone. Fingers crossed that school will engage them both and help to sort out some of the behaviour.

Thanks ladies. You have given me a lot to think about and lots of new things to try. Fingers crossed for a more positive day tomorrow. Much thanks .

another thing just crossed my mind: watch your language.

for example, give positive instructions; things they can do. Eg DS, wait at the gate versus. DS, Don't go onto the street.
then praise

be gentle to ds2 versus, don't hit ds2.

then praise.

Sticker charts or pasta in the jar type strategies can be very helpful but they do need to be applied consistently. They do require effor on your part to notice and reward the desired behaviour.

First identify the behaviour you are wishing to encourage
EG to play gently with dd or to do as you are asked the first time you are asked.
Choose just one thing to start with

Then really make an effort to notice when this occurs. Then reward immediately.

At the age of 4 I would then review how many stickers or pasta in the jars after just an hour or maybe half a day. I would then praise for meeting his target and reward (maybe give one of his removed toys back)

Just mentioning the book "How to talk so kids will listen..." (google it) as their method is also a great way to get better behaviour from a child this age.

My DS wouldn't even sit on a naughty step - he knows he doesn't HAVE to, and let's be honest, as our DC get older we actually can't make them do anything. Trying to simply insist on your authority means nothing to a child who has realised that. You have to do it another way, by helping them to feel understood and to want to behave. Only use the consequences that you are in control of.

With the yoghurt for example I would pass DS the stuff for cleaning it up and probably help him do it. If he said no I would leave it there (knowing he would be sorry later and would want to do it). I would make it clear that was not OK behaviour and was a waste. He would not get another one and I might say "it's a shame that yoghurt is wasted now, if you want pudding tomorrow it would be best not to throw it on the floor. If you keep doing it we will not be able to give you things like that". He also has a pasta jar (pasta piece in for good behaviour, out for bad, when it's full he gets a reward) so something that bad would probably mean taking a piece out, which he hates.

The "How to talk" book also suggests empathising with the child about they are feeling and what they are aiming for and bringing humour in so eg you could say "Oh no! You were so cross about the yoghurt, you threw it! If we don't clean it up, we could end up knee-deep in yoghurt. In fact it could fill the house. We wouldn't be able to see the telly. Chucking on the floor is not what you are supposed to do with food, is it?" etc. DS responds really well to this - by the time I'd got that far he'd be apologetic and cleaning up.

My DS is a lot better now (at 5) but I do know where you're coming from and it's exhausting.