DS3: when does naughty indicate psych problem?

[PrinceCorum]

Our DS just turned 3 is a bright and loving child. But lately his behaviour is spiralling into extremes of naughtiness that my wife and I find very hard to handle. A typical day at the moment kicks off with crying and rage as soon as he wakes up, a battle to get him washed and his teeth brushed, another battle to get him dressed, and a 50/50 chance that he won't eat any breakfast due to a tantrum. The day then consists of some periods when he seems to enjoy playing, followed by fitsof rage and anger when his little 1 year old brother gets it or my wife and I get it, via hitting and biting. Evenings are equally miserable with battles over bath time, bed time and sotry time. Not only are we worn out but we are left feeling that we must be terrible parents as our darling boy just seems so unhappy these days.

Background; DS is at nursery 3 days a week. He is generally welkl behaved there although sometimes we are told he has hit one of the staff. They don't report anything unusual about him. My wife and I have tried various strategies - ignoring, time out, reward cups. Haven't found any of them work that well.

PLEASE share your tips for dealing with this sort of thing. Also, we are worried - DS was our first child and we have no idea if the extent of his apparent anger and rage is normal or whether it signifies some kind of psychological problem. I keep getting paranoid that maybe he has ADHD or some personality disorder, but then on the other hand I sometimes see him play happily and interact well with others and I lose this fear. Also, I figure that if he had some psychological problem, why would it not manifest at nursery and mainly at home?

So Mums and Dads of three year olds - please share your experiences - should I be worried? Does it sometimes feel like every day is a battle with DS from start to finish?

anyone?

my ds is a bit older than yours (5)

He is very well behaved at nursery does exactly what he is told when he is told, sits quietly etc.. but can be an absolute terror at home.. kicking hitting throwing etc

Dont get me wrong ... a lot of the time he is loving and well behaved but when he kicks off he kicks off big time

a few people have said to me if he behaves when he is out and about then you dont need to worry about. Its apparently a good thatn that he feels comfortable enough at home to make his feelings clear

he's my only one .. so i'm only quoting what i've been told

sorry worry about adhd

I was always 'reassured' when I heard someone call them the terrible 2's but the terrorist 3's. My first DS (now 5) has always been a high energy, high maintenance, bouncy little man/handful and the time between 2.5 and 3.5 were pretty much exactly as you describe. The book 1,2,3 Magic seemed to help us. And the Toddler Taming book by Dr Christopher Green. The Magic book was very good for actually changing behaviour and the Toddler Taming I found good for understanding and reassuring me that I probably wouldn't end up on Supernanny eventually (jury is still out on that one some days though!).

Have you discussed your concerns with the nursery staff or your health visitor - they've obviously seen many, many children and so might be able to say whether they've noticed anything problematic. What do the tantrums/anger seem to erupt over? Not getting his own way? Or just random? Maybe give him some control in his decisions - offer him the two choices of whatever. And give him time warnings or event changing warnings - 'right, library in 5 mins' etc type of thing. Or is it a language barrier thing (a friend's similar age child has slightly delayed speaking and he's more tantrumy)?

I do worry about ADHD too but my DS but mostly think that he's just pretty exuberant and, I think most kids are just more of everything - super sensitive to change, very impulsive, etc.

He sounds a lot like my DD. I have absolutely no worries about her - she's just a very very independent strong willed (to the point of bloody mindedness) little girl

I've found in general 'consequences', time out, star charts don't work very well. Time out in particular makes her very angry and we only use it now when nothing else is working and we need to put her somewhere because we're beginning to lose our temper with her.

What does work is giving her as much freedom as possible - letting her do as much for herself as she wants - even if she can't really do it probably or is really slow. We let her make as many decisions for herself as possible (what she wears etc) or give her a choice between 2 things (eg. breakfast cereals, cups, plates yes pretty much EVERYTHING). This helps her feel like she's in control and a sense of independence.

Also we talk to her about what we expect from her behaviour-wise before we go anywhere or do anything - I think this helps her know exactly what we want from her.

Also we talk to her about how her behaviour makes other people feel and how they may then respond to her (for instance if she shouts at other people they may shout back, if she hits the cat the cat may scratch her, if she hits me, I will be very cross).

Thanks for these messages.

Can I ask - are your DS tantrums sporadic or do you get some days where there are multiple tantrums and you feel like the whole day has been a struggle?

Tantrums weren't my DS's 'thing' - at that age he probably only had them sporadically 1-2 a week. But crying/whinging/struggling/ not listening/running amok was definitely his thing and there would be weeks when that started from the moment he woke up (room too bright) to the moment he went to sleep (can't sleep, want water, want fingernail clipped, mouth clamped shut on toothbrush...grrrr). The struggle does wear you down.

I wonder how much of it is a sibling thing with your situation? I know that that sent my DS's behaviour a bit crazy for a while, and again around when my 2nd DS was more mobile around 12 months and getting into everything (and DS1's toys! Cause of much angst). They impact them directly more as the second one gets older.

I also thought maybe getting some books to read to him...No Hitting, No Biting Puma, maybe one about siblings, or feeling frustrated or whatver - think in this section a MNetter has just advertised free books for anger in kids (which I've asked for!). Sometimes reading it in print in a story can sink in for them a little more.

Sorry....just had another thought to answer your title. I had a family friend who's child at 4 (or 5?) went for a psych evaluation. Saw him at 3 yo and the parents both looking a bit worn out but he seemed OK...but exuberant but on the face of it to a relative stranger not anything different. But the parents said he was a complete handful. By 4yo the mother sometimes had to shut herself in another room for protection as he would kick and hit her during his angry outbursts and he was a big boy. They got a psych referral to a behavioural psychologist and they were able to advise on some things to help out. I guess everyone's tolerance level is different, but I got the impression that the parents just didn't know what to do anymore and were at the end of their tether, so obtained the referral.

we can have a whole day where ds is an absolute pleasure to be with

and days when i think he should just have stayed in bed cos everything is a struggle from morning to night

that's reassuring!

Prince

I suspectthat you are gettingthe reassurance you want and i suspect that the posters on here are spot on.

Should you have any real concerns though that there may be an element of ADHD or ASD then please do ask.

DS2 has ASD and his earliest symptoms were multiple uncontrollable tantrums. But they were often triggered by things that made no sense - things to do with his need to control his enviroment , like being anxious at transition ( movingfrom one situation to another) and other stuff that made little sense.

If you have questions then I or other will be happy to respond.
I say that only because when I started to know that something was going on with him , all I could get from people were 'don't be silly , he's fine' comments . Whilst well intentioned they left me isolated and unable to get any perspective.

Hi, this seems entirely normal to me. I have one DD (now 4.5) and a year ago we were very much like this - spitting, hitting, biting mainly at me and my partner. Absolute nightmare getting dressed, eating etc. Things a lot better a year later - main reasons I think are; changed to 5 mornings plus lunch club at nursery from 3 full days. Routine is paramount - if every day we all get dressed before we go down for breakfast it's done in 5 minutes - much easier when there are two of you about to help. Long days at nursery were too much for her to physically and mentally cope with. Reinforcement of why hitting etc is bad. When we talked about it calmly, my dd thought dropping rubbish was worse than biting - really didn't understand why it was so bad. Explained calmly over and over again and eventually it sinks in. Also empathy seemed to start to develop by about age 4. Avoid going anywhere at meltdown times - mine was worst around 4pm - very active, burns energy very quickly then gets tired and hungry quickly. Early dinner time helped. Although we don't all eat together, I give her a meal at 4.30pm and then she might sit with us at 6pm and eat a bit more if she feels like it. If you need to do something like wash up etc, provide an distraction activity - sticking, moon sand, painting, making dough. This prevents it deteriorating into a shouting match - 5 minutes hoovering up mess is better than an hour of yelling. If you're tired and grouchy at their bedtime, they will be too and they don't settle. Make bedtime the same every night - allow time to relax and play in bath - mine likes taking in plastic animals and a snorkel. Letting them brush their teeth whilst in the bath also seems to work. This is probably all very obvious - i'm no expert but to me it seems that you just have a very active, bright, energetic child. I did wonder if ours had ADHD but now think she just has a lot of energy, it burns very quickly and I need to distract or feed before it gets out of control. I think some children just don't respond to standard techniques of time out and reward charts. Ours responds to withdrawal of treat after dinner. If I really do have to take her to the shops at 4pm, I allow her to choose a toy in the pound shop if she's behaved - and keep reminding her if behaviour starts to deteriorate. I hope things get better for you - can honestly say a year later things aren't perfect but the physical abuse has stopped and she sometimes even puts her own clothes on now!

Gosh, I could have written a similar post after today. I had an awlful day. My nearly 3 year old is just pushing every boundary - it's a nightmare.

Today, he was disruptive to others, ran around the house shouting and running into his sister and me. When told off, he smacks out. Erghhhh. I spend a lot of day trying to remain calm and following my rules (praise any good, ignore what you can, step for any aggression and throwing).

Lets crack open the wine huh?!