Why does he do this.......any ideas gratefully received!

[Melly]

For the last week my ds, aged nearly 14 weeks, has been a nightmare between 5.30 - 6.30 pm. He is happy and content the rest of the day, sleeps well, feeds well and I just can't figure out why he does this.
He is in GF routines and happily follows the routine (more or less) but I've never managed to wean him off the 5 pm feed, basically he cries if I make him wait until after his bath but if I give him a bottle, about 20 minutes after the feed he starts yelling and doesn't let up until I give him the next bottle at about 6.30/6.40 pm. My dd aged 2 has her tea just after 5 pm and ds used to sit reasonably happy in his bouncy chair whilst she had her tea, we then proceed upstairs for bath and ds would happily kick on the floor while I bathed dd, then I bath him, then its downstairs for milk and then to bed. So, I can't understand this yelling, and I do mean furious crying, not just fussing. I've tried everything, increasing the amount of the 5 pm bottle, lying him down under his play gym, playing music, singing to him, but nothing seems to calm him. It has got so bad that I am getting very depressed, tearful etc because I worry about this every day now and it has turned teatime & bathtime into a miserable hour where as before it was so good. Dh works away during the week, we leave in the sticks so I have no help from anyone. Yesterday it was so bad (dd played up as well) that at one point I sat on the bathroom floor and cried as well.
Friends and family have just said that this is his way of "excercising" and that all babies have a fussy time. I agree to a certain extent but this is screaming rather than fussing or crying. As soon as he has had his next bottle he is fine, so I'm pretty sure it's not colic or anything. He sleeps brilliantly.
I cannot up his bottles any more and I have already started offering him a tiny bit of baby rice at 11 am....please don't shout at me, I know its a bit early but I felt he was ready.
Anyone got any ideas why he might do this, and if you have two children of similar ages what does your baby do at this time of day.
Please help.....I'm getting myself very depressed about this, crying as I type.....

Melly it sounds like he's just hungry, and a bit tired. Why can't you up his 5pm bottle any more? How much is he drinking? Please don't fall into the trap of not doing something that you know will make your baby happy just because Gina said you shouldn't - Sometimes she can be wrong

Prufrock, thanks for replying so quickly. He has a 7 oz bottle at just before 5 and then another 7 oz bottle at 6.40 ish so I do feel that is a huge amount? The rest of his feeds are
7 15 am - 8 oz
10.45/11 am - 8 oz & tiny bit of baby rice
2.15 pm - 7 oz
4.45/5 pm - 7 oz
6.40 pm - 7 oz

maybe I should try offering some baby rice at 5 pm ?

You could - but that would be my last resort. Have you considered a dummy? If you keep it just for this time he won't become completely reliant on it - my dd used one for exactly 3 weeks at around this time - although her "difficult" period was 7-8pm

Melly - I'm not going to shout about the rice thing, but even Gina (who goes for solids too early IMO) says that if you are going to wean early, then baby should be draining 8 oz at every feed and immediately crying for more, plus thay should really weigh over 14lbs, otherwise they're just far too little.

At about the same age my ds took 13oz (of expressed b-milk) in one feed. If he doesn't posset it back up then he can obviously cope with the amount you're giving him. I don't know anything much about formula, but have you switched to that "hungrier baby" stuff - it's harder for them to digest and sits heavier in their stomach so they feel fuller for longer.

It's also not too early for teeth and that can make them truly miserable - try calgel and calpol at 5pm possibly? By 5pm when he's really tired anyway, any pain or uncomfortableness is just exacerbated by that time.

If that's the only time he really goes for it yelling the house down, it's most likely he's completely shattered, regardless of how well he's slept during the day. Does he get a good 2 hours at lunchtime?

(There's always the dreaded dummy to keep him sucking on something between 5 and 6:40pm.)

Message withdrawn

Melly - since he is fitting into all other Gina routines why do you not just let him have the bottle at 5pm and up it to 8 oz and not worry about it. He might want to take more milk at that feed. I wouldn't give him any more baby rice if he can tolerate more milk.
Does he have to have a bath every night?
If he goes to bed at 7pm, could you bath dd then when he safely out the way? Just trying to think of things to reduce your stress levels at those times. I would also definately try a dummy at that time as well - that was the time I used one with my last 2 babies - over teatime when I just couldn't spread myself so thinly.

no idea if this will help but you've 2 weeks to go before you should be introducing solids so for now can't you give 9oz at the 2pm and/or 5pm feed and he may not be so hungry later in the evening? Then once you're past the 16 weeks try some rice/fruit puree at tea time.
I would also agree with trying a soother at this time.
Good luck

I understood that it was absolutely verboten to introduce solids before advised because of potential kidney damage. Why would you give baby rice but not more milk? It seems to be quite common for babies to have a "scream up" in the evenings and I think that babies and children cry before going to sleep, maybe its worse in the evening because the sleep that they are preparing for is the long one? I don't know who Gina is but I have a 4 month old who is settling into her own routine naturally as long as I allow and facilitate the patterns that are emerging (morning sleep, evening routine with clear indications of it being BED time etc). I totally agree with developing and encouraging routines and can't believe the mess some people get in by just trying to carry on as before but there does need to be a bit of flexibiity doesn't there? This Gina seems very popular so I'll probably get a bo!!@£&ing!

Thanks everyone for the replies.
Must admit I am tempted to try a dummy for this time when he seems so unsettled. I'm not really a lover of them, absolutely no offence to anyone who does, but I am getting to the end of my tether.
For now I am just going to stick with offering a very small amount of baby rice after the 11 am feed and keep going like this until he reaches 4 months when I will follow GF's plan for weaning.
Ds does weigh just over 14 lbs and drains every bottle, he chews on his hands and does seem to need feeding every 3 hours during the day, any longer and he starts getting irritable.
Bobsmum, yes I wondered about teeth, I can't see anything but you may be right, I will try some calgel to see if that makes any difference.
Mears - no I suppose he doesn't need a bath every night, it's just when he has been in a "good mood" I find the bath time bit quite relaxing, both children seem to like their baths. Although I am a GF fan, I have no problem with giving ds a feed at 5 pm, I'm sure many of "her" babies "happily wait until after their bath" but mine definitely do not!! My dd never dropped the 5 pm feed (she was breast fed) until she was weaned and was having solids for tea.
Bloss - ds slept through from the 10.30 pm feed until 7.15 am every morning from 8.5 weeks, during last week he started to get a bit irritable when I woke him for this feed, I had followed the GF advice to the letter and very gradually brought the feed forward by 5 mins every 3rd night etc and on Sunday night I decided not to wake him for this feed and he slept until I woke him at 7.15 am and has continued to do so. I agree it is a long time to go without a feed, but he obviously can and my dd went through at almost exactly the same age.
My auntie has spoken to a couple of mums at the mums and tots group she runs and one has also suggesting using a dummy just at this time.
Thanks for the suggestions everyone, I will see how I get on today.....fingers crossed it won't be so horrendous as yesterday.

Bloss - good point. I'd forgotten - ds had the 10pm feed till we'd introduced solids (5.5 months). It was ebm - he would usually take 6/7 oz so was obviously still hungry.

post crossed!

Davros, sorry if I have got you wrong, but I was actually look for help and support, your post hasn't given me either and has made me feel worse

From what you say, Melly, it sounds as if he is hungry, esp if he's dropped his late evening feed. Why not try a bigger/extra feed when he cries, and see what the result is? Then you can take it from there.

I found it some consolation when mine were small to remember there are mums all over the country going mad in the late afternoon/early evening with crabbit children. Hope life improves soon.

sorry Melly, just re-read and didn't mean to sound so snotty. Its sounds like you're quite isolated (in location) which must make things much worse. I find most problems usually at their worst just before starting to get netter. Screaming baby (not content and quiet) in arms as type so must go! Keep chin up!

Hi, not sure that I have much to add to what has already been said other than to offer lots of sympathy.
That time of day seems to be a bad time for parents everywhere around the country.

I was wondering whether it is partly tiredness as well as hunger. Is DS still having an afternoon nap or is he making it all the way from 2-2.30 until bedtime? I seem to remeber a phase of this with my DS as he couldn't quite make it to bedtime from then without a nap - but wasn't ready for one at 4.30 again. Incidently DS was huge - weighed well over 14lb at the same age (just looked it up - 18lb - oh my god I'd forgottenjust how huge - now 2 1/2 and thin though)and was definately hungry. As I was reluctant to start on solids I held out just giving extra milk when I felt he needed it at other times during the day too (BF so no idea how much - but given the rate at which he emptied an 8oz bottle if given one - absolutely tonnes). However a friend of mine was told by the paediatrician at the hospital to start feeding solids to her dd at 12 weeks as she clearly needed something other than milk. She is now 33 months, happy, healthy and eats everything in sight if she's hungry so don't beat yourself up about the rice - just don't give anything too difficult to digest. GF suggests rice and pear, I think from memory, until 4 months if you need to wean early.
It must be a phase if he is OK the rest of the time. there will be a solution/end to it but constant screaming is hell isn't it. I'm so glad my two haven't had colic.

Hi Melly,
Good advice here, can't add anything different, but to say i support those who say he's hungrey - Could you increase his feeds to 8oz at 5pm??

Oh on dummies...I use to detest them too until i had Dd2 - but as it made her a content baby and me a content Mum I wouldn't hesitate to use one again!!

Melly, I have four children and all mine were little ...... between about 5 and 7pm. It got so bad one day and I was on my fourth that I called in the midwife and burst into tears. Can you believe it-she picked him up and put him over her knee, patted his back and the little wotsit stopped crying and actually smiled at her!! All of mine have been the same, and I think it's partly because as a Mum you're tired, worried aboutif you're doing the right thing, probably haven't had enough sleep or (loathe to mention this) you time and the babies pick up on this. Do you have a partner/dh and is there any way you could alter the baby's bath/bed time until he comes in so perhaps he could help with one of them and you could do the other. Maybe you could swap children every other night so it doesn't feel like you're favouring one over the other. Have you anyone else who could come and and maybe give you a hand, even if it's only occasionally? I really do sympathise-my oldest is now 13 and he goes to bed after me sometimes and this episode about sums it up. I was trying so hard to be patient yesterday, teeth, toilet, hands/face etc and they can all read to themselves except the 4 year old who is a bit anti-social at the moment. It degenerated into a shouting match between us and when I shouted at them that I was tired and it was about time me and Dad had our tea, there was a long pause and the 8 year old (sensible only girl!) shouted back that if I was tired why didn'y I go to bed instead of them, because they weren't tired!I hope you sort the little one out and I'm sorry not to have more practical advice. Don't let it get ypou down, everyone has bad days and it's very hard to reason with a tiny baby! Hope other mumsnetters can help you...

My suggestion is a little unusual and I guess just from the experience of my ds who also follows the GF routine, but when he had these moods, I often (not always) found he would settle if I took him outside into the garden or for a short walk around the nearby park in my arms or in the baby bjorn. I think it also helped me relax and stay sane - nothing worse than being trapped in the house with a screaming baby.

Please please try a dummy. My dd screamed for the first 8 months and drove me around the bend (especially as my ds had been the dream baby who never cried). Funnily enough, the early evening was her worst time too. One of the only things that would calm her was a dummy. (I'm not opposed to them and used them on both my children, but don't worry, children will give them up quite readily at a young age if they don't need them and if they do need them, they will just suck their thumb if you don't give them a dummy.)
The other thing I did was at 4 mo. give my dd a special rice starch stay down formula once a day(even though I had been exclusively bfing until this point) and this helped a lot with the screaming too. It's called Enfamil AR and you can get your gp to prescribe it...(chemists will probably have to order it in).