boy / girl play

[aegeansky]

DS is nearly 7 and has a roughly equal number of male and female friends including one very close female friend. This has been great up to now, as when he is with girls, he tends to plays more imaginatively, with a wider range of activities and with a greater use of his communicative abilities. Mums of other very boyish boys ask me how they can get their boys to play well with girls, too.

Recently, however, he has picked up the idea that girls are 'rubbish' or 'silly' or a good for play-attacking or spying on. He never says this when he's alone - on the contrary, he shows a natural respect for the girls - but one or two of his closest male friends are exploring the idea and he does repeat it in their company. He has also started counting the number of times that he plays with girls and boys and checking if it is an equal number within the same week.

What's happening here and what do I do? Perhaps it's normal for boys and girls to grdually stop playing around this age. I'd be interested to hear any relevant views.

In case it's not clear from the tone, I'm not worried, just curious and wondering what might happen next and perhaps, what to say or not say.

Very very normal

normal.

What, so ignore and it will go away?

Or does it get worse before it gets better?

Or do boys just stop playing with girls altogether?

boys usually stop playing with girls altogether, if they have free choice, and everything to do with girls is generally dismissed as rubbish.

ah, what I thought. so ignore the behaviour, if it's normal?

I can't really advise on how to best to deal with it as I've only got girls, but I'd probably just ignore unless a comment offended me

Thanks for all your input Hmmm, I'm thinking that if it's a normal developmental stage, then not to make a deal of it. On the other hand, I don't want him to

• actually believe it
• hurt or alienate his closest female friend by being insensitive.

It won't necessarily last forever. Certainly in dd's school there was a period of a couple of years (yr 1/yr2) where the girls and boys in dd's year didn't play together much at all, and one boy we knew well went through the 'girls are stupid' phase.

Now in yr 3 from what dd says about what she has been doing they seem to be playing in gender mixed groups far more in school breaks, and the boy above is now a particular friend & comes round out of school to visit . . .

My ds(aged 8, yr 3) prefers to play with girls, he only seems to like rough play with his younger brother. This does make solid friendships more tricky. I think I have myself to blame as this is his thrid school(state, private, state) and at his second school the boys were horrid and so he missed the crucial curve between playing with everyone and only playing with boys. So as all/most boys got a little rougher he was socialising with boys that had been in full time nursery together since three months, with both parents working full time....these four boys (only seven in his class) seemed to be very very rough and seemingly unaware of other people's feelings.

Interesting, Posie. I've noticed that there's already a gender divide in the playground, although some imaginative and chasing games are mixed. Outside school, there's still opposite-gender play, but DS is relatively unusual in that he has several girls who still want to play with him (and vice versa.)

Feedback about my DS from other mums is that their little girls like playing with him because he is very boyish but not aggressive. That is apparently unusual and appealing to them, because it gives them access to boyish play ideas.

DS benefits, too, because the girls' (girl/ girl, or girl/boy play is consistently more sophisticated than when 2 boys are playing together alone.) Girls already seem to disclose far more than boys, use a wider range of strategies to negotiate, and concentrate on one play idea for longer.

So there are benefits on both sides that it would be a shame to lose!

There are benefits, definitely, to boys mixing with girls..it helps them be more mature and aware of other people's feelings. I do worry about my big boy though, I worry that forging friendships with girls means that he's missing out on boys and 'boy' friends. I worry that soon the gilrs will want to be just girls, although they do seem to care about other people's feelings more so maybe not, and that will leave my so with noone.

Well, dd is just 4 and already coming out occasionally with the 'boys are stupid' line. I am afraid I will not ignore it. I don't tell her off but I do refute it with a 'huh? but you like playing with xxx and he's a boy. You can;t say ALL boys are silly' bla bla

Posie, well, quite. Your ds is quite clearly a boy and doing his own thing. Am sure he'll find other boys more on his wavelength soon (especially as they grow up a bit). Am trying to explain to dd that it's the behaviour she doesn't like, not the gender. Some boys play like this, some girls play like that. Try playing with everybody sometimes for variety!

Am slightly disturbed to think that people would not want to at least mention that it's ridiculous...

Of course as a mother of 3 boys and one girl we have no such stereotypes or gender myth or bias in this house!!

I like your comment, Adair, about at least mentioning that it's ridiculous to say that the whole of one gender is 'silly.'

There's a lot of peer pressure to talk like this, so I do think children should be encouraged to question the assumption.

I don't think this behaviour goes away if left unchallenged - on the contrary, I've noticed that in schools, it becomes entrenched, so that by around 10 or 11, some boys and girls refuse to even stand next to each other in a line or when taking part in the same activity.

I agree that it is really important to question it - even at the level of 'X didn't like that film because it is for girls' I think it is worth picking up on.

Interesting, Takver. Are you saying we should question all gender assumptions? That's a challenging idea.

For example, a lot of fiction seems to be gendered - even at the level of cover design, as well as content. I'd say there definitely is fiction for girls and fiction for boys, for example.

I'd say that boys and girls watch films, too and engage with them in different ways that are increasingly obvious from 6 onwards.

I'm not saying that there's any point in foregrounding this whenever we're talking to our DC, but the differences are surely there, and tend to push the genders apart in middle childhood. hmm Perhaps that should be a question - 'Is that one of the reasons why the genders tend to drift apart in middle childhood?'

Well, I hate the current obsession with gender-themed fiction; I don't believe that when I was a child there was such a clear divide between 'girls' books' and 'boys' books'.

It seems that it is quite permissible for girls to read 'boys' books' - certainly dd doesn't seem to suffer at school for her love of Astrosaurs, Capt. Underpants and the like, yet I think that a boy who made a point in school of liking Rainbow Magic would find it hard going (as opposed to reading a sibling's books at home, for example).

So I suppose if you look at it, 'girls' things' are seen as inferior, whereas it is acceptable for a girl to aspire to the 'superior' boys' things.

And I think that it is right to encourage our children to question these types of hierarchy - I would definitely encourage dd to ask why the girls are expected to read certain books from the box in school, and boys others if she objects to the selections. (You can imagine the teachers loved me when I was in school )

And do girls and boys definitely engage with films in different ways - or do different children have different ways of engaging? I only have the one child, but from my (of course limited) experience of dd's friends, I would say that it would be hard to identify a specific gender bias in the way that they relate to films when they watch them at our house, or at least hard to filter it out from their own personal obsessions/dislikes.

Very interesting comments, T.

I don't know where this gender themed thing fiction thing came from, but it's very powerful. Yup, you're right, boys steer well away from 'girls'' fiction, even when there's no obvious reason why, say, Lion Witch and Wardrobe should qualify as such. And so-called 'children's' writers, like Jacqueline Wilson, are in fact girls' writers.

With the film thing, not sure. But I note one example enthusiastically described by the dad of a female friend of DS: DS was talking loudly about how the film was made, while at exactly the same time, his friend was moved to complete silence by the story and characterisation. It's hard to tell with these things.

Perhaps, surprisingly or not, there's a cognitive bias by parents that means they notice suitably 'girly' or 'boyish' behaviours, and reward them accordingly? What do you think?

Tavker, I agree entirely. And yes,aegeansky, think it is mainly down to us parents interpreting due to bias.

As the mum of a girl and a (very small) boy, I am more and more noticing that so much of their differences are highlighted and interpreted accordingly. Eg both enjoy looking at snails - oh, that's cos she's into nature/he likes bugs and grossness. They are different of course (becuase they are different children) but both sweet natured and like babies etc. Am fed-up hearing that dd is so compliant implication wet because she is a girl bla bla. Am seeing that boys are often 'allowed' to get away with a lot more, where girls would be told off and to stop.

Tbh for me, I feel I can't operate from an assumption that they are different because of gender, because that would surely limit them somehow in opportunity. They are both children who are capable of playing and behaving in different ways according to mood and circumstance.

I do see some differences between my kids - but who knows why? Individual character or gender? I suppose I feel that because any differences are on such a spectrum (ie v boyish boys to v boyish girls), then it's actually irrelevant.

And yes, ridiculous. And should be treated as such. By all means, choose who you want to play with, but not because of their gender.

Aegeansky, your film example would work very differently here - dd would be the one going into excruciating detail about the film, how it was made etc (sometimes I think she likes the 'making of' bits better than the film).

The way my children (DS and DD) behave changed a lot when my husband left. They are both confused by gender roles as they now lack a strong male figure in their lives (not that he was that strong!).
My DS aged 7.25 has an almost exaggarated male identity when out with friends (Arnold Schwarzenegger meets Deadly Sixty) while my DS shuttles between girly-girl and tomboy (aged 4.5)
Do you have a strong male in your DS's life?
It is a bit galling that this seems to be so important, as we mums think we can handle everything ... But, guess we have to be realistic and realise we can't!

I have now joined my DS to a gymn class and drama club with some nice guys in charge, and make sure I invite my brother and his kids round a lot.

That's interesting Ambrosia. I would agree that seeing a variety of positive male role models is important for sons and daughters tbh. I guess this is why what they see in the media is important too - what they see, they absorb. (In dd's case, far too many simpering Disney princesses... )

Ambrosia, I am a dad. I wasn't going to say as I didn't think it was relevant up to now.

I obviously can't judge what sort of influence I have but I am continually asking myself questions about what's culturally prevalent and whether I want to go along with it or not.

Takver - in light of this, of course, my views on film-watching and gender, and gendered fiction, are strongly mediated by my own experiences since childhood.

And I strongly remember noting, when I was first at scondary school, how most boys wrote extremely prosaically - with the maximum economy of expression.

It may be unrealistic, but I'd like DS to grow up (eventually) not thinking about gender as the main way of characterising somebody - friend, or otherwise. Of course this isn't something one could ask of DS - he's still a little boy.

And right now, in late yr 2, approaching yr 3, gender difference is on the radar of both girls and boys - certainly as a group focus.

I think you're right, Aegeansky, of course gender difference is something that both boys and girls need to explore as part of the growing up process.

I do think it is worth discussion, though, as a lot of media aimed at small children - and often, I feel, the education system (unintentionally) - is far more gendered than the adult world.

Certainly I don't see the adults around me choosing their friends only from their own sex, or exclusively choosing 'mens' or 'women's' books/films/websites (even though I am here on mumsnet )

It seems that often boys are limited just as much as girls by the gender differentiation in school (can perhaps say this safely here away from the feminist topic!). So for example in dd's school by the time you get to yr 4 none of the boys take part in the Eisteddfod. That seems to me a real shame, since it is an excellent way for children to learn about presentation, speaking in public etc.

Yes, Takver, I think gender differentiation is reinforced very strongly in school.

It starts with definitions of 'good' behaviour in reception that are on the face of it arbitrary and (I'd say, for a boy) often deeply contrary to the child's needs and make up. It's really about what's convenient in terms of classroom management, so little boys are taught that to be perceived as good, they have to behave just like little girls. This is my perception, of course, and some may take issue with the assumption that there are gender-specific behavioural norms that start early.

(I'm not saying they're innate - I have no idea - just that they're very apparent by the time children start school).