Pointing and Autism

[sockonmyhead]

I was wondering if anyone can tell me how important not pointing is in diagnosing ASD?

DS2 is 22 months, he has no words and doesn't seem to have much understanding, he doesn't point, doesn't know his body parts and doesn't follow instructions.

He has glue ear and has had episodes in the past when he couldn't hear at all but he seems able to hear at the moment. He babbles constantly, enjoys playing but isn't always interested in playing with others.

We are waiting for a speech and language assesment and I think I will get the health visitor to have a look at him but I want mumsnet's opinion in the meatime.

So...I think my big question is could he be autistic? He seems to change so rapidly from a fun little boy to just ignoring his name and seeming so withdrawn. Sorry this is a bit of a messy ramble!

your ds sounds just like mine was had the glue ear etc as well. is now 12 and only recently was given a asd diagonis. they kept say it global delay due to the hearing problem! i was sure he was autistic by the age of five but getting the diagnois was difficult due to the above do not be palmed off if you think he is autistic go private and get him tested if you can afford it as the NHS takes years! just to get the autistic assessmnet we had to wait two years on the waiting list! then it took another year of assessment before we got diagnois which was inconclusive! you need to start now you may need a SEN statment for school and this is not easily obtained if you dont get one before ds starts school is very hard to get one after and it takes a year roughly to get one so dont waste any time get onto it now and push for appointments. good luck

will push the hv to do something more.

I really hoped you were going to say 'no just the glue ear'. I hate the thought of him having to struggle through life.

SORRY;( but be open minded it may not be asd remember you instincts are the best you know your child better than anyone else! an autistic child can be very ahrd work and you will worry about them even more but you need to concentrate on getting some assments done! private assment would cost you £1500-£2000 but they are quick to get appointments with private child phycologists and they would be able to give you an idea if anythign is needed or diagnois of various things all under the assment a least you would have peace of mind if its just global delay but i cant stress to you enough the time time issue if you child is going to need any extra help at school you need to get cracking now. state schools dont give anywhere near enough help to these children unless a statement form the lea is in place.

Hello sock

AFAIK the most important thing to get sorted is his hearing. It is very difficult to move on with communication if you can't hear well all/most of the time. Some glue ear is so bad that dcs are fitted for hearing aids.

So get hearing checked asap. If hearing is fine then push for the SALT assessment to be speeded up. If hearing is poor/non existent look at signing as a way to help his communication when hearing is down?

A diagnosis of social/communication disorder is hard to be definite about in pre-verbal children so go down the "can't hear" route first and see where that leads you.

At the same time cut out background noise (TV/radio) at home and in the car; cut out most/all TV watching/computer games when he is around unless he is on your lap being actively talked through the programme - singing etc); and play lots of singing/rhyming games with actions (big expressions on your face - make eye contact with him); touch him gently on the shoulder everytime you speak to him (so if he can't hear your touch will alert him) and try and avoid spending much time on the phone (mobile or texting) when he is around/awake as this often means your concentration is not fully on communicating with him.

Good luck

lack of pointing by 18 months can be a red flag for some sort of language/communication problem. Agree with Gagarin though about getting the glue/hearing issue looked into more thoroughly as that could be at the root of the communication problems. If you are concerned about ASD then ask for a paed referral as well, waiting lists can be pretty long, and you can always cancel the appointment if things improve in the meantime.

Can I just say, don't be downhearted yet. I have a friend with a little boy who I was convinced was autistic. I have a DS with AS and he struck me as very similar. However, he was diagnosed with glue ear, fitted with grommets and he is a completely different little boy now. Most definitely not autistic in any way. I agree that you need to sort the hearing problems out before worrying too much.

I would also say you might be expecting a bit much for a 22 month old to be playing with anybody. Cooperative play tends to start when children are about 3. Before that they tend to play side by side or alone.

I am not saying your DS is definitely not on the spectrum but it does sound like his hearing is an issue.

I hope you get some clearer idea soon.

Hi Sock
First may I send you love as this will be such an emotional time for you right now. I have a 14 year old son who was diagnosed with autism at 22 months. From the amount of information you have given it is so hard to say about your son. My son at that age interacted very little with others and if he did it was to have a need met. Many children with autism do not point as to point you need to be aware that by your action another person can define what you are pointing at and that you want to show them what you want. It takes the realisation that others have thought processes which a child with autism will struggle with as they think everyone else thinks and sees exactly what they do. A child with autism will have difficulties with socal interaction and expectations, verbal and non verbal communication and social imagination. What I suggest you do is to keep a log of all the things that worry you about his behaviour/development as this may help you when you talk to professionals. Look for repetitive behaviours whether that be in daily routines, play etc. To be diagnosed autistic he will need to be showing signs in all three of the areas. Hope that helps a little without going on too much. You must trust your own instincts as to what you feel is wrong as you know him best. I wish you all the best and hope that you have the support you need whatever the outcome from his assesment. xx

Thank you for all your replies. I will call the health visitor tomorrow. He is due back for another hearing test in about a month but his hearing seems to have cleared for now.

I really can't decide if I am over reacting or not. One moment he is fine and the next he seems to be showing all the signs of ASD; this weekend he has decided to start flapping his hands which I know can be another sign. I just so want him to be ok!

Yes I have looked at it.

He doesn't really do pretend play, but he has two older siblings and doesn't get as much of my time as he should. He loves stacking things but enjoys doing this with an adult or his sister, it's not an insular activity if you see what I mean. He loves playing with his sister, he giggles because she giggles or smiles at him.

He doesn't point, but will follow a point at least some of the time. He will bring a toy or thing to show you and usually helps himself to things, if he wants something he will try to reach for it.

He loves climbing, swinging etc, he will make eye contact and responds to his name. He doesn't respond at all to 'no'! He will sit through a book but isn't really interested, tv holds his attention for 10 seconds maximum.

He can't speak but babbles and seems to be trying to say words now. He can't follow instructions, he doesn't seem to understand what you are saying unless there is also a visual prompt (eg high five). But his hearing problems could go a long way to explain this.

And then he had to start with the arm flapping!

Just writing this all down to try and stop stressing about it!

Oh and he likes going up to strangers in doctors surgeries or the like and demanding they smile at him and pick him up!

Feeling negative so trying to think of all the lovely things he does

I know, that's what I keep thinking, but then I think some more and I worry.

I know not all kids will point, autistic or not, but surely not hearing would have made him more likely to use pointing or other physical signs to draw attention to things. He doesn't wave either, now he just flaps...

if i push a car he smiles, if i give it to him he might push it a bit but he is more likely to eat it or throw it or bash it. i don't think he has a clue what a car is or what to do with it, again his hearing could kind of explain this but not fully

if we play with a tea cup and tea pot, he will put the cup to his mouth, but most things go in that direction at some point (in fairness he has teeth coming i think). he will bash the cup and pot together but not really pretend to fill the cup.

come back to thread and read what others have said also. please go to the gp and get a referal to pead dont take no for an answer or that you are worring over nothing etc etc. the longer he goes without the propper intervention will only keep his developemental delay worsening act now. if the waiting list is more than a couple of months try to go private the longer its left the further behind he could fall a pead will then refer you on to child phcologist etc is needed. try not to get to upset or worried not all children are the same and are all unique in there own way you love him and want whats best for him and thats what matters more than anything else.

sockonmyhead - I would get the GP to refer you to a paed as well. If it is anything like our system here, you get a referral to a paed and then the paed refers you on to who every they think is necessary. In our case for DS1 that included a hearing test because of difficulties with the way he spoke. I still think the hearing test might be the key to your DS having seen a child change dramatically after having a hearing problem diagnosed. But if is isn't the only problem then at least you will be getting more intergrated assessment and an a full overview, iyswim.

FWIW we were referred by our HV if you don't feel up to speaking to the GP yourself. However, we had an excellent HV who took my concerns seriously and even visited DS's pre-school to observe him, so you have to weight up the capabilities of yours and see if going that way would help or not.

hi sockonmyhead, I'm lingle, both my sons had severe language delays.

try not to fall into the trap of thinking of autism as a big monolithic awful thing that's much worse than deafness. Sure - he might have a communication delay that's nothing to do with hearing - but doesn't mean to say he won't be bringing his children to see you when you're 70.

What I don't know - and what you need to find out, perhaps by asking on the special needs board, is this. "Would a child with hearing loss still normally be pointing and using complex gestures by 18 months?". Perhaps you could even call the relevant charities for the deaf. Or try calling on the special needs board for Ragged Robbin - as I recall, she works with deaf children - and her son has language problems.

meanwhile, just try to increase the quantity of time that he spends interacting with you and the siblings if you possibly can (sorry if that's impractical). Any communication is good communication.

good luck.

Hello, sorry this is such an old post. what happened in the diagnoses? Was this down to glue ear? ASD? or both? Im in the same boat and im trying to get as much info I can. x

Queena, if you have worries about your DC, then go to GP or HV.

My DC1 was the same at 22 monts with glue ear. We sorted the glue ear (grommets) but things did not improve. We have now a dx for autism.

If you have concerns, then just get the ball rolling. The system is very slow and referrals take forever.

I have to agree get the glue ears sorted out first it could be just this that is preventing him to hear properly hence affecting his hearing and preventing him to follow instructions or learning new words through communication if he can hear properly how will he learn to communicate. He is very young please do not rush into things get his hearing sorted first and see how things go.

ok I hope I can get some advice from you mums out there. I have a son who is 28 months old. he was born around 1 month early. GP says his ears are fine. His father left us just before he turned 2. He does not point but recently started waving. He is NOT talking, lots of babbling and incredibly happy. Laughs, loves being tickled and understands most instructions like "please get the milk out of the fridge". He has toy vehicles but likes to play with the moving parts like bonnets etc. MAINLY he has a serious obsession with doors, ALL doors. he will open and close them for ages. Especially if we are in a new environment that is all he wants to do much to the annoyance of other people. I have no family in this country (English is my mother tongue and only language I know) and he has no siblings. So most of his time is spent with me and he attends no groups at present. However I am arranging to change this. He does watch television ceebeebies and has favourite programmes. He will take my hand and lead me to things he wants like snacks. He used to say Amen but has stopped. He has a little mate 8 months younger than him who he plays with once in a while and last Friday they played a chase game together. He had a referral to the Paediatrician who specialises in child development last Friday and she said he is on the autistic spectrum. This after just over an hour of seeing him and of course hers was a small office with doors and window which he played with the whole time. He was giggling away the whole time as well which she said seems to be his only expression. He spent some time pretending to say hello into her toy telephone and when asked built a tower with some plain wooden bricks. She found that he did not make enough eye contact with her and seemed to ignore her. Perhaps you will say I am in denial but I am sure he is NOT autistic. Is there any advice for me PLEASE????

helpmeplease it's very hard when you hear something may be affecting your child's development but can you tell me...did the Pediatrician tell you she would be referring your son for more evaluations? He will most probably get seen by more experts and she should have referred him for speech and language therapy as well as occupational therapy which are to help him develop.

Now as for what she said about him being Autistic....it's a label which can get him help which by your description, he does need. It's probably not a confirmed diagnosis as of yet, but by the sound of it, she does suspect that your little boy is on the spectrum.

It's not a life sentence...many children with Autism go on to lead happy and fulfilled lives...I think you should post again in the Mumsnet special needs pages...they are lovely there and will advise you further.

Did the pediatrician tell you you'll be getting some letters soon about more appointments?

I made a mistake my son is actually 2 years and 8 months old. Yes I think she said he would be referred on to a psychologist and someone else for further evalutation. So I am waiting for that.

Thank you for your advice!