There was a mum on the bus today....

[KemalsStilletto]

I don't know the full story but she started hitting her dd, what looked like very hard on her head. When the little girl tried to talk to her mum the mum snapped 'shut up, I don't want to talk to you so just shut up' and then went to sit on a tiny seat with the little girl, obviously squashing her, so of course the little girl complained that her mummy was hurting her and then the mum hit her dd more across the head and actually made a point of moving up further on the seat, thus squashing her dd even more! I obviously don't know the full story so I won't judge, but it was horrible to see someone hit their child in public and tell them to shut up.

[handlemecarefully]

I meant that I don't necessarily support smacking, but understand...first hand...why it happens some times

[paolosgirl]

The odd smack did me no harm, you're right, and as you don't know me, you've no way oy judging whether it did me any good or not!

It was not a dig at single parent families having more antisocial children, but a fact that more children from broken homes end up on the wrong side of the law - it's a fact borne out by the stats, unfortunately.

I don't know what the answer is - I don't think there is one single answer, but I don't think banning smacking is the solution, or even a solution.

[paolosgirl]

And ABSOULTELY agree with Handle...I have a very easy child and one not so easy, shall we say (putting it mildly). If I only had the easy one, or 2/3 like her, I, too, would be very self-congratulatory! And yet I bring them up in exactly the same way...

[Lizita]

As a single parent i HAVE to respond to paolosgirl. There is absolutely no reason why being a one parent family would result in "that kind of person". I am the most loving & gentle of parents, I would never even give my dd a smack on the bottom (not that i'm judging anyone else for the odd smack). She is going to grow up feeling very secure & sure of where she has come from. She is going to learn respect and compassion for other people. Not having a father doesn't inhibit her ability to grow up in that way, in fact in a lot of cases I'm sure it increases that chance!! (well, compare a loving, peaceful, secure 1 parent household to a two parent family where the parents are rowing and swearing all the time and disrespecting and/or physically abusing their kids).

Works both ways of course, a child growing up in a loving, secure 2 parent family would have a better chance than one growing up in a 1 parent family with an abusive unstable parent.
It's nothing to do with how many parents there are.

[Lizita]

paolosgirl i take your point about the stats; perhaps this is down to the fact that most 1 parent families would have experienced some sort of instability/rowing before becoming 1 parent families. I've been a single parent from the beginning. But now that sounds like I'm having a dig at a certain set of people . I don't want to/don't mean to and I'm not even saying that's my opinion, just acknowledging the stats...

[FairyMum]

HMC, maybe you do have a point and I have had a relatively easy ride, but my children can be cheeky monkeys too. I tend not to get worked up about things though. I have a relaxed and laid-back approach to bringing up my children and it has worked. Perhaps you are right and that it might not have worked with other children. I do think though that whatever you do, you are your children's role model. If you shout, smack, sulk......your child will too. A smack to me is a quick fix, but I don't think it teaches children values and right and wrongs.

[Lizita]

Yes, apparently the best way of bringing up kids is to behave the way you'd like them to behave. Was thinking last night actually, I read somewhere in a book that it's a good idea to actively do something to help the wider community, eg help the homeless etc, so that your children will witness you doing that and take on the same attitude. My parents were always heavily involved in that sort of thing and I have grown up with a sense that I should be, and I'm feeling quite ashamed that I'm actually not (though I have in previous jobs). Was wondering if it would be hypocritical to do something like that just for the sake of handing down good deeds to my dd!!
I agree the odd smack to a child does nothing to give them a good example, though it doesn't necessarily harm them as such. But also understand being at the end of your tether. Thankfully when I've lost my temper with my dd I've never actually hit her, instead I stamp & scream & slam the door as I shut myself in my room!

[Caligula]

Lizita, also many lone parents with custody of the children, have absent exes who have the luxury of undermining their discipline and not backing them, which can make it practically impossible to parent effectively by the time the kids are in their teens. In that situation, it's easier to impose effective discipline if there isn't an absent parent always ready to undermine.

But that issue is not generally discussed when people talk about lone parents bringing up children.

[MascaraOHara]

I so wish these sort of discussion would not end up discussins the faults of single parent-dom. Neglectful/agressive/whatever parenting is not directly related to single parenting. There are issues beyond this and it really gets my goat when I hear one parent families being put down because it's easy. There is a root cause and there's nothing to say a bad single mother would be a good mother if only in a relationship and that a teen from a broken home wouldn't have been a tear-away if he had two parents in the home.

I firm;y eblieve that there are lower lying issues that are the root cause but of course the first thing people see is that these people are single parents or come from single parent families! it's ridiculous.

[Lizita]

I agree absolutely Caligula. But doesn't the same thing happen in 2 parent families but much more often & more confusingly? Even happy families? Forgive me if I'm making an assumption here.

[Lizita]

You put it better than me MascaraOHara

[homemama]

It's about education (in the broad sense)
You cannot expect parents to use alternative and more effective forms of discipline if they have no awareness that they exist.
I'm not a single mum, but I don't think I do a better job because I'm married, I think I do a better job because, like most of us on here, I know how to.

[Caligula]

Totally does Lizita. But I think in situations where both parents live together, there's more of an incentive for each parent to compromise and back each other and present a united front to the children, even if they argue about it behind the kid's back. After all, if you can see the results of not backing each other every day, and it directly impacts on your quality of life every day, you've got a bloody good incentive to make sure that your kid is nice and doesn't make family life a misery!

Which is why it does piss me off when people appear to assume that being a single parent is automatically a recipe for being a bad parent. The statitistics about why children of lone parents are more likely to play truant, be offenders etc., are bound up with the issues of poverty, violence etc. etc., some of which (eg poverty) may be the results of being lone parents and some of which (eg violence) may have led to becoming lone parents.

[Caligula]

homemama, totally agree. I'm always a bit disturbed by the condemnation of parents who smack kids, when society is really so very bad at educating people in more effective parenting techniques. I'd really like to see more positive parenting courses being offered to parents in a non-stigmatising way.

[homemama]

Imagine if Mumsnet became parliament for the day!!! What laws would we pass???
Actually, I might start this as a thread under chat!

[Lizita]

i agree re education.

[FairyMum]

But I don't think it is that difficult to find out about other parenting techniques. As far as I know there are parenting courses and you can get help from your health visitor. There are books and telly is full of programmes like SuperNanny and Little Angels all showing positive parenting techniques. Whenever the government is trying to get involved it is accused of being a Nanny-state and I think this is why it was too scared to pass the law to ban smacking. The NSPCC wanted a total ban on smacking. Not to go for the odd light bottoom-smacker I suspect, but to make it easier to prosecute and to give children the same rights as adults. I suspect the problem is that the people who use shouting and smacking etc as their parenting techniques are not likely to seek out information or to enrol in parenting courses.

[paolosgirl]

Fairymum!!!! That is naive in the extreme! So all parents who smack and shout now are poor parents, who really need to watch more parenting programmes on TV, and enrol on parenting courses.

The reason that the Govt did not entertain a complate ban was not out of fear - but practicality. So a parent smacks a child on the bottom - then what? Legal action? Fines? Prison? Is the bottom OK but nowhere else?

Thankfully, parents are still allowed to discipline in the way they choose, with abuse being dealt with by the courts effectively. You may not agree with smacking (and shouting!), but it doesn't make it wrong for some parents.

[Blossomhill]

I think this is appaling. There was a recent case of a child whose father was caught bashing the living daylights out of him caught on cctv camera. Thankfully the man was caught and put into prison for assault.

[Caligula]

FM, sorry the odd Supernanny programme plus a few others on digital TV is not a proper support system. And help from your HV - yeah, like you can get breastfeeding help from them as well.

If they had as much support and persistence for parenting as they do for the vaccination programme, we'd all be paragons of parenting virtue!

And there are very few parenting courses. The ones the govt. sponsors, tend to be for people whose kids are in trouble at school, so most parents don't want the stigma of getting involved with them. I did a parenting course last year and there were raised eyebrows among my acquaintances, because they assumed I must have been in trouble with the police or something! They were astounded when I told them I'd had to pay for them!

[RachD]

The problem is Fairymum, that we care.... that's why we are here discussing things on mumsnet.
I really do think that some parents just don't care.

I discuss, listen, ask my mum, discuss with dh - not in any particular order here... try to decide which parenting technique is best... naughty step, saying NO,etc etc.

It seems that not all parents do this.
Some smack, and they don't care whether you like it or not !

[Lizita]

I agree with Fairymum re those people not likely to seek out help or be interested in it, or consider it important even, but I do feel like I'm generalising by thinking that. I like to think I try & understand all different types of people! I have also thought in the past that all parents should be sent on a compulsory parenting course either while pregnant or after having the child (mainly because I felt i needed so much help & input - I got it all from books & the telly as fairymum suggests) but then, who's to dictate what is the best way of parenting? Eg some agree with Gina Ford, some don't, some bf, some don't, blah-di-blah. I did enough reading to allow me to make an informed choice myself. That's why they'd get acccused of being a "nanny state". We need to have the freedom to choose how we bring up our kids.

BUT - abuse is one thing that should be stopped, though I also agree with paolosgirl about where is the line drawn re a smacking law. I don't agree with smacking, full stop, but I know there is a big difference between the odd smack on the bottom & abusive hitting. Who's to judge ? And actually are these things already being taken care of by SS anyway? Maybe as members of the public witnessing things, calling the police is all we need to do if we honestly believe abuse is happening... but i fear the police wouldn't necessarily get involved either. Also, supposing we had completely misread the situation and caused a whole heap of stress for a parent just like one of us, at the end of her tether?

Don't know if i've made sense...

[FairyMum]

Paolosgirl, I was responding to Caligula's post about there not being education and information available out there for parents who wants to educate themselves about more positive parenting techniques.

Regarding the law:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4175905.stm

(sorry can't do links)

Caligula, Yes I agree would be fantastic with more parenting courses and more support. BUT, I think I agree with RachD's post and that these courses would be full of people who are probably perfectly adequate parents and the people who really need to go on them never would.

[Lizita]

RachD, saying they "don't care" sums up what I was trying to describe at the beginning of my rant!

[Lizita]

Perhaps a compulsory parenting course wouldn't be such a bad thing actually - those of us who do care and do our research would be free to learn all different ways & choose our own ways, but those who don't do that already would at least be getting SOME kind of input.