There was a mum on the bus today....

[KemalsStilletto]

I don't know the full story but she started hitting her dd, what looked like very hard on her head. When the little girl tried to talk to her mum the mum snapped 'shut up, I don't want to talk to you so just shut up' and then went to sit on a tiny seat with the little girl, obviously squashing her, so of course the little girl complained that her mummy was hurting her and then the mum hit her dd more across the head and actually made a point of moving up further on the seat, thus squashing her dd even more! I obviously don't know the full story so I won't judge, but it was horrible to see someone hit their child in public and tell them to shut up.

[handlemecarefully]

I can completely agree with you on that one - hard to interpret a smack around the face as anything other than abusive.

at the small baby!

[Caligula]

Raspberry, I think the reason people don't interfere is precisely because they can't tell the difference between what is a moment of madness where someone loses it in public once because they're under intolerable stress, and what is regular, sustained abuse.

If you can automatically tell the difference, then you must be very clever. And if all of us could, there wouldn't be a child abuse problem.

[FairyMum]

And that's exactly why it would be so great if we could just ban smacking.There would be no grey area and even if some parents might loose what they see as a rather effective and harmless tool to discipline their child, but so what if we can cut down on the real abuse?

[Lizita]

How would it actually help for you, as another member of the public, to tell a parent off for hitting their child in the face? The other parent has a go back, disappears with their child and presumably continues the same behaviour.

[Raspberry]

Sadly hmc, our government had the opportunity to make such a judgement unnecessary and outlaw smacking, alas they did not.

I don't agree with smacking at all, as a habitually smacked child I believe it did me harm and I will not repeat the behaviour with my ds (2yrs). A firm grip of the arm and an angry stare into his eyes are always sufficient in my experience so far. I have smacked him once or twice, literally, sadly, once for biting me very hard, it was instinct I think for me to lash out in that situation.

In my sad experience, I find that as a smacked child, it is not a long way to go to smacking an adult, except we don't smack as adults, we hit kick and punch.

On MN abuse of a partner is fairly universally condemned, so why the double standards when it comes to a child?

As for your case hmc, common sense says that I would have judged you as not abusive in that instance, but as a tired mother who should find some better strategy for controlling her kids, smug perhaps, but we should all strive to do better

[FairyMum]

It's the principle. Adults should not stand and watch while a child is being hit. Try hitting your child on a bus in a Scandinavina country.

[handlemecarefully]

"but as a tired mother who should find some better strategy for controlling her kids"

Could I use a straight jacket on her?


.....joking!!

[Raspberry]

Caligula - it doesn't matter which case it is, you should say something. If it was a one off then that parent would probably be mortified that they were pulled up by a member of the public and would think twice next time. If it was an habitual abuser, if everyone said something everytime it happened, they would have to question themselves, 'why do people always get on my back about the way I control my kids? maybe I doing wrong?' Obviously there are cases of truely nasty people that would take no criticism seriously, that what we need vigalant teachers and social services for.

Lizita - not if enough of us took our social responsibilities seriously enough and they got criticised everytime they did it in public

[Raspberry]

Actually, yes hmc, a straight jacket is a less abusive punishment than hitting, yet none of us would dream of using one! Straight jackets are associated with mental illness and kinky sex, so wouldn't be culturally acceptable as a punishment, so why is smacking?

I'm sure you are the 'perfect mum' on a normal day

[Lizita]

I think you're being a bit naive Raspberry about how people might change.

[handlemecarefully]

as they are associated with mental illness I might get measured up for one!

[Raspberry]

Not really Lizita, as I said, nasty parents are unlikely to change and that is why we need fostering and adoption, etc...

Better to be naive though than complicit don't you think?

[Raspberry]

Kinky sex more like!

[Lizita]

I agree with you on principle etc Raspberry, about being complacent and people not getting involved any more these days. I'd also like to think people are capable of change etc, but I just mean in the way you're saying - if enough members of the public had a go about the way they were treating their children. That's not the way it works. It would take first of all interference from SS, and for them to change ,therapy, etc etc etc. know what i mean?
I would report parents who I KNEW were consistently abusing their children, but if i see one incident from a perfect stranger out & about I don't see what I could realistically do about it other than call the police I suppose.

[Raspberry]

Lizita, I understand you position and largely I agree, my small area of disagreement with you is this:

If parents expected that smacking a child would be criticised openly in public, the vast majority of parents would not do it. It's because we all turn a blind eye to this small scale abuse that it goes on.

There is a well proven health and safety theory that goes - for every 100 small incidents/accidents there is one fatality, so preventing the small ones reduces fatalities. It actually works! I believe it works because the 'zero tolerance' of small accidents improves the culture of safety overall. I see no reason why the same cannot be applied and true of smacking and child abuse, its a cultural change that is necessary.

[Lizita]

I agree re culture change, but even if it stopped public hitting like that, it doesn't mean it would stop what goes on behind closed doors. Abusive people have huge, deep-seated issues of their own and would abuse whether or not culture outside collectively takes a hostile view towards it.

[CHOCOLATEPEANUT]

Raspberry,I agree that we as a society have forgotten how to look out for one another.I like your quote of the good samaritan,so true.

Todays society,in the main, is self obsessed and driven by greed.Nobody bats an eyelid when they see somebody being attacked or abused so why would they step in if they witness child abuse(incidentally I am NOT part of the anti smacking brigade but a smack should be just that, a tap on the bottom or hand,it never did me or any other member of my family any harm)I do have very traditional values where raising children are concerned.Saying that if discipline is done correctly the need to smack should never arise.A firm grip and glare works for me too but she is 21 mths and when she is 15 and is stood at the door wanting to go out with her biker boyfriend and have a tattoo (GOD FORBID....)I would do more than smack her..

When I saw the girls outside the supermarket the swearing horrified me as much as that fact that they were ridiculing the poor child. Swearing of that kind in public is totally unacceptable.Look at where we are now eh? Think about how things used to be when there was respect and community spirit.Its been a slippery slope thats landed us where we are today.I HATE the fact that everywhere I go I hear "fckin this" and fckin that".NO RESPECT.Thats why they speak to thier children the way they do.How are these poor children going to grow up?

I am off to find a remote island to live on......

[handlemecarefully]

I would if I were you Chocolate - before you explode with rage!

[FairyMum]

Yes, but are the children who stand outside your supermarket swearing the children who were smacked or not? I personally believe that the children who grow up to become disrespectful and out of control are more likely to be the children who WERE smacked as I find smacking disrespectful and humiliating. It also teaches a child that there is a point where it is okey to loose control and become physical. Brought up by parents who had lacked resources to seek out other methods and lacked understanding of their child. Sometimes I feel children are smacked for just being a child who is impatient in the shop, throw a few tantrums etc.
I am not talking about the occasional bottom smack. I think it's a shame that these threads often ends up with someone who thinks she has been called a child abuser for smacking her child lightly on the bottom a few times a year. But neither do I think a child has to get brusing and end up in casualty before you can label it abuse. I fully agree with Rasberry. If we adopted a zero tolerance to smacking, a lot of children would be saved from suffering.

[handlemecarefully]

I'm beginning to see the logic in that argument

[paolosgirl]

I would have said something, I'm afraid. Hitting someone around the head is assault, and no excuse would justify it.

[paolosgirl]

Can't agree with you, FairyMum re the smacking. The odd smack honestly did me no harm - I am one of the most law-abiding people you'll ever meet, so that arguement doesn't really hold up.

The kind of young person you're talking about has more often than not been brought up in a family where there is only one parent, or with parents who are not involved and not interested.

[FairyMum]

Paolosgirl, I think you miss the point of my argument. I am sure the odd smack didn't do you or many others any harm. Tbh I don't think it did you much good either, but it's not the point. Read Rasberry's post from 11:17:38. I think she is making the point very well! I also think you are making an unfair dig at single-parent families. Why would having only one parent make you more anti-social?

I don't understand why you need to smack though? I bring up perfectly well-behaved children without smacking, so why can't everyone?

[homemama]

The sad thing is that these very children that we have all seen abused both verbally and/or physically (and I don't mean ones who receive the occ. smack on the bum) will grow up knowing no better and will in turn abuse their own kids.
Instead of lamenting it, society needs to work on these kids to stop the rot. But if I'm really honest, I'm not sure who should take responsibility for this or how we can go about it.

[handlemecarefully]

Fairymum,

I largely agree with you re smacking, but on your last sentence ("why can't everybody bring up well behaved children without smacking")...whilst I am sure that your parenting skills are good, there is also an element of luck to it imo. For instance with my 16 month old son (sooo easy going and ameanable) I sense that I will have an effortlessly well behaved child.

That's not the case with my challenging (although still adorable) dd.

So whilst not necessarily supporting smacking - it may be that you are sitting pretty a little with naturally compliant children, and can't really empathise with the stress that some parents go through.....?