Please or to access all these features

Behaviour/development

Talk to others about child development and behaviour stages here. You can find more information on our development calendar.

Are these ASD traits?

21 replies

gnu · 19/05/2010 11:06

DD (who was four in March and is our only child) has been in school full-time since September and has been causing her teachers some concerns. This has resulted in a discussion with the SENCO about 'ASD traits', which has come as something of a shock to us. We don't know how best to interpret her behaviour and are worried that she will get categorised as requiring ASD interventions when these may not be appropriate.

In short, DD has always been a very shy girl, particularly around adult strangers. She would 'turn to stone' and look away when adults spoke to her, although she will talk to adult acquaintances once she is 'warmed up' and feels a little more comfortable. She is typically the same with teachers - often not responding to their questions or offers of help - although again she will talk to them when she doesn't feel under pressure. She is a very talkative and demonstrative little girl at home.

She has always been better with other children, although she has never been good at sharing and would often as a toddler see other children as competitors at the playground, etc. Other times she would happily play with other children if she felt comfortable with the situation. She has certainly always loved playing with others and becomes sad when she feels too anxious to join in. When playing with others she has huge fun, laughing and shrieking - she doesn't prefer being alone. Although she can easily tell when others are cross or happy - she is very senstive to this - she's not very good at being kind or showing sympathy.

This anxiety about joining in with groups of children has certainly got worse at school, partly I think because she is in the lower year of an integrated two-year group (many of whom already had friendship groups) but also because there is a very unstructured approach of learning through play. She has a few friends/playmates but has quite an intense/dependent relationship with one of them (quarrels and "I'm not your friend anymore" situations). She is happy talking and playing with children she knows outside school when we visit them but is much more reluctant at school. When she does join in with new children, she often still 'plays alongside' - at least at first - rather than engage more fully like they do.

Her vocabulary is very good and she can already read simple word books. She loves imaginative play and telling us made-up stories. She paints very imaginative pictures with very imaginative titles.

I think the teachers are also worried about her 'rigid thinking'. She is certainly very stubborn and can protest when she is told-off or when we correct her reading, telling us that she is right and we are wrong. But she also understands, eventually, when we explain things to her and can tell us why she is being told off. Although she liked some repetitive activities when a toddler - fetching and carrying books one at a time, putting socks in drawers (not the right ones!) - she isn't at all focussed around this type of play and doesn't seem to display 'repetitive behaviours' as such. She doesn't get preoccupied with things (perhaps aparty from princesses, fairies and pink things, but I guess that's fairly standard )

She has always coped pretty well with change. Although she settled well into routines when small, she doesn't really mind whatever we do together now. Not having a bath, going to school differently, changes in mealtimes, long journeys to new places to sleep, etc - none of these things bother her in the slightest (she even welcomes many such changes). Although she is sensitive in many ways - doesn't like feeling ashamed or told off at all, quite limited in her food choices - in other ways she isn't. She never really complains when she bumps herself, is too hot or cold, or is wearing uncomfortable clothing.

We've always known that she is socially anxious ('shy') and quite stubborn, but have never thought she showed the other characteristics of ASD. Both of us as parents were shy children and still feel anxious in informal social situations (but much better in formal ones - for instance, I would be happy to deliver a lecture to a large audience but would avoid a cocktail party full of the same people like the plague). We are happy if she gets some more structure/formality in her day to stop her feeling progressively more withdrawn. It would also be good for teachers not to tell her she is shy and allow her to use this as a kind of excuse for avoiding communnication with adults.

From looking at ASD traits on the web I read that ?All children with ASD demonstrate deficits in 1) social interaction, 2) verbal and nonverbal communication, and 3) repetitive behaviors or interests. In addition, they will often have unusual responses to sensory experiences, such as certain sounds or the way objects look". Out of this list, DD is certainly having trouble with social interaction, but this seems to me to be due to anxiety rather than any lack of interest in people. I can't see any sign of the other two deficits - her oral and written language is good and she is not especially repetitive.

But we're now worried that we might be missing the big picture here. Can anyone help with views or advice please? Sorry this was so long.

OP posts:
pagwatch · 19/05/2010 11:14

My son has asd

To be honest anyone who tells you that your child has or hasn't got asd based on the information you have posted is a bit of a twat.
My son is very severely autistic and he does not come close to sliding into the categories that are defined in the broad criteria.

With autism a child can do exactly the same behaviours as a child who is NT but the intensity or regularity with which they do it is the difference IYSWIM

If the school feel your child may benefit from being assessed , if this will allow her a bit of extra support then I would get it.

There is not a raft of ASD therapies being thrown at children with autism but the school may be able to help your child in situations that she finds challenging and help her minimize their impact.

The 'label' means sqaut in my experience, except in how we can support our children.

Would you be concerned if they wanted to assess her for dyslexia.
It is understandable to find the phrase ASD traits scary. But ultimately it comes down to helping our children achieve their best

patienceplease · 19/05/2010 11:21

I don't have a lot of advice but... we were told about a year ago by nursery that they thought DS was autistic. We disagreed, but agreed to see a community paed for inital assessment. DS was typically difficult, and bolshy, so she referred us to child development centre for full assessment with OT, speech &language person, play specailist and consultant paed.
After 3 long morning sessions with them, they concluded nothing wrong with DS (as we thought).
THe whole process was really supportive, helpful and they gave me advice on DS's issues over change (which were his main problem).
So my advice would be that perhaps you should contact your GP, who can refer you to a community paed, so the professionals can take a view. Our consultant paed was very clear that only afetr these types of full assessment should people start "labelling" children.
(It did take several months to get the full assessment)

coppertop · 19/05/2010 11:22

I have 2 children with ASD and one without. I really don't think the SENCO should have been attempting to make any kind of diagnosis. They just aren't qualified to do that and, as you've experienced for yourself, it can lead to a lot of worry.

I honestly couldn't say whether or not your dd has ASD. Nothing in your post sets any alarm bells ringing for me personally but I'm not an expert. I would say though that even if the school tried some ASD strategies it wouldn't necessarily be something to worry about. Those strategies can be equally good for children who have no SN.

Has the school said what they are planning to do next? If they are concerned about social skills, are they looking into working with her on those things?

gnu · 19/05/2010 11:24

Hello Pagwatch, thanks for commenting.

I understand exactly what you are saying. In one way, I am happy that the school is picking up on some of the difficulties she is having with social interaction - whatever their cause - and might be able to support her better. That's all good.

But we were concerned to see that she has already been labelled as displaying ASD traits on no basis other than a few jottings sent by her teacher to the SENCO. She already has 'ASD traits' next to her name on the school system before anyone had discussed any of this with us. My concern is not so much with the labelling, as that it might encourage the school to treat her in a particular way that is not appropriate.

Already, for instance, her teacher spoke about giving her 'time to think' between a number of options. This isn't at all what she needs - she knows her own mind only too well. She just needs to be 'led' into situations that we know she will enjoy as long as she doesn't have to feel pressured initiating them at the outset. Even if she wants to do a particular activity, she will always tend to choose something that doesn't require her to fell socially awkward at the outset.

OP posts:
pagwatch · 19/05/2010 11:30

hey gnu

I hear you about them labelling. I can see what you mean.

I have a different attitude to most as 'asd traits' is not something I would feel negative about - no more so than 'left handed'. But I realise I am out of kilter with mainsteam

Have you thought about seeing a private Ed psych to get your own perspective? It would stop you feeling like the school is settingthe agenda and gives you a report to wave if you wantthe school to back off. I know a good one in London.

They won't ( are not allowed to) give a diagnosis of anything but they can talk your throw any behaviours your child could do with some help with .

Do bear in mind as well that many many ASD traits are actually much more obvious to schools because, as loving parent who have been around thatchild since birth, we tend to develop our enviroment around the behaviours or quirks of our children.

DS2 is a different child at home because we anticipate his needs and work around him without every realising we are doing it. (crafty bugger )

electra · 19/05/2010 11:33

It is hugely irresponsible of the SENCO to suggest to you that your dd has ASD - she is not qualified to diagnose as coppertop says! I cannot believe the arrogance of it tbh.

'She is certainly very stubborn and can protest when she is told-off or when we correct her reading, telling us that she is right and we are wrong.'

I could have written this (and a lot of other things you describe) about my 6 year old dd, who is definitely NT.

As a parent you are the one above all, who will know if you feel something needs investigation. I think that most of us who have a child with ASD would be able to say that we knew assessments were required.

If you are worried about your dd, then the best course of action for you would be to get a referral to a developmental paediatrician. This is the only professional who can diagnose ASD. Not an educational psychologist and certainly not a SENCO! I think your SENCO has behaved unprofessionally.

pagwatch · 19/05/2010 11:40

I said an ed psych can't diagnose.

But my sons ed psych helped with many issues including his anxiety in public places etc etc and we saw him within one month

The developmental paed on the other hand saw us nearly a year after we first had concerns and her contribution was 'yes. he has autism'.

If OP is sure DD does not have ASD then she doesn't need diagnosis , she needs adive re DDs 'traits' so that she can respond constructively to the school asap

gnu · 19/05/2010 11:47

I don't want to avoid help, including diagnoses, if this is the best thing to help DD. But I wouldn't like it if she has to be labelled as ASD in order to get any help iysm. I would hate to think that I am missing the obvious because of being so close to DD. But I am confused because although some of her behaviour is like the descriptions of ASD, in many others ways I can't see that it is. She is so interested in other children and exited by them - she is just so anxious about joining in.

OP posts:
pagwatch · 19/05/2010 11:50

oh gnu

it is the hardest thing about asd , that there is no definitive test.

I agree with electra. More often that not as parents of children with ASD we have anagging awareness that there is something going on. You may well be right that there is nothing going on at all.

gnu · 19/05/2010 12:09

But is there any likelihood that ASD traits can get progressively worse/more varied without intervention? As I've said, she has some difficulties in social interaction and these are being more highlighted in school. But the 'shyness' and the stubborness have obviously always been there. Is it possible that she could begin to display other ASD traits as she gets older, or is this very unlikely? If it was possible, obviously I would want to pursue diagnosis even if I wasn't particularly convinced myself.

OP posts:
lulubooboo · 19/05/2010 13:10

gnu-I could have written your post myself. My 5 year old daughter is very very similar to yours and like yours has always been extremely shy with adults and stubborn in that once she has been told something is a certain way or made a decision she won't budge from it. Like yours, she is bright and interactive at home just like any other child. At school she is good as gold, over sensible but we have the problems as she just won't join in, barely speaks unless on a 1:1 or just with children and has difficulty with her needs as she is too shy to ask for help. Almost as if she is scared to put a foot wrong. It is like having two daughters and it is heartbreaking to see her so anxious about school and over analysing everything that is said to her by teachers. At the moment, I guess we are waiting to give her a chance to overcome the shyness as she has done with family friends. It has crossed my mind that she may have ASD traits and I did do a little research and yes she probably has a few but certainly not enough for me to consider persuing any kind of assessments. Even having looked into it myself I still would be a little shocked if a teacher wanted to persue assessment on these worries alone and my instinct tells me that I would feel the same way you do. I think for my daughters way forward, I have been and would be in constant communication with the teachers over how we are all helping on a regular school/class based level focussing on her social interaction skills. I think it is acceptable that they have flagged your daughter as having some issues that they need to be aware of and are trying to help her but I would expect to see this as ongoing in class with regular reviews and discussions and ways forward first. This is the route I am taking. I would be reluctant to go for assessments without more reasoning if diagnosis is the only positive outcome of assessment, and you are pretty unconvinced that a diagnosis will be made. I hope the school can come up with more support for your daughter, working with you and the teachers she is familiar with firstly before referring over to the Ed Pyschs who are surely going to have the least chance of seeing the 'real' her being that she is so shy. I am not sure if this post has helped you, but I wanted you to know that you are not the only person going through this.

pagwatch · 19/05/2010 13:15

gnu

I think that rather than getting worse, what can happen is that as children develop and become more sophisticated/complex in their emotional respenses and the social interaction, a child with issues in this area becomes more obvious IYSWIM.

I think this is some of the reason that mild aspergers or HFA is diagnosed later.

Does that make sense? As all the children get olderthey become slightly more noticable amongst their peers.

electra · 19/05/2010 13:54

Sorry pagwatch - what I said about an ed psych not diagnosing wasn't aimed at you! I only read the OP so I hadn't read what you said. I should really learn to read the whole thread first, I was referring to other threads that came before about EPs assuming the ability to dx! A good ed psych is invaluable of course if a child needs proper recommendations.

pagwatch · 19/05/2010 14:25

no prob electra

It also doesn't help that I bang on about my experience as if that is universal. My EP was great and my paed was crap. It is just as likely to be the other way around

rabbitstew · 19/05/2010 17:51

My ds1 is an awful lot like this, too. In 1-1 sessions with teachers, he is chatty and communicative and produces excellent work. In the classroom and playground, he needs to be constantly encouraged to get on with what he is supposed to be doing, won't take the initiative on anything, is anxious about joining in actively with anything, scared to put his hand up to ask questions, will play with other children if asked but is too terrified to ask anyone to play with him. Yet he comes home happy every day and seems to really enjoy school and take everything in. It is very hard to tell whether anxiety is causing asd-type behaviours, or whether an asd is causing his anxiety. The school think he is very gifted in some areas (reading, creative writing and maths) and seem undecided whether his behaviour could be explained at least partly by his intelligence or if not, what the exact issue is - he has many traits, but of several different conditions and maybe not enough of one in particular!!! We are hoping he will get to see an Ed Psych at some point, through the school. The school is also being extremely thoughtful and helpful in its approaches to his issues - he already has an IEP, in any event, because he has a diagnosis of Ehlers Danlos syndrome, hypermobility type, which probably helps to confuse the issue even more, because that has affected his physical confidence, making it harder for him to join in in the playground, anyway, because he can't run very fast! He's been socially anxious since he was a tiny baby, though, so I am really not convinced his intelligence and hypermobility explain his problems completely!

lingle · 19/05/2010 19:47

much much, sympathy, we have been through this, much too long a story to write down here.

My advice is: to approach this as a family. You sound united in your positive approach - try to keep together.

Remember you are the expert on this little girl. Your job is to help her teachers be experts too.

good luck.

ki28 · 19/05/2010 20:41

hi,God,thats a lot to take in!We have been there and are just coming out the other side nearly 20months later.

in brief= my ds had been in school from just b4 4th bday,after one term, we gor called into see senco and teacher for a chat reaguarding his shyness,anxious,nail biting,unable to make friends,repeating words,unable to prononunce sounds,playing alone,not sharing,unable to make eye contact.Very set in ways and stubborn.still lived in fantasy world. They though he was somewere on the spectrum.

I really had my doubts,but wen i read back there worries,some alarm bells began to ring for me.

We went through all the apps,speech therapy,was seen bout his motor skill as he had trouble holding a pencil.

Its really hard to offer anything but support to you as every child is different.

my ds 'problems' have increased dramaticaly as he has become more settled,
he couldnt hear properly in one ear so that answered many of the problems regaurding his speech and learning.

He is just one of the class now,the school no longer have the same worries bout him. He turned 5 in march 2010.

Throught this i just always kept in the back of my mind that the school wouldnt waste funds if they didint have worries.

And that i as his mum new him best. and knew how to help ans support him best.

At the beginning of the whole process, i blamed myself for not soacilising him enough and spoilng him.

The whole thing made us stronger as a family and put in so much mre focus on us as a family.
i began to lose sight of who my ds was and it took me a good few months to come to terms with it all.
I then realised that no matter what he was still our quirkey crazy little man. who wen we look at him now is no different to wat he was at age 4,he has just matured a bit slower then others.

Good luck,keep focused on what is best for her.

ki28 · 19/05/2010 20:43

its ment to say decreased dramatically as he has become more settled.

gnu · 20/05/2010 11:28

The SENCO was surprised that we saw anything odd in her having ASD against her name, saying "we're all on the spectrum somewhere". This seems a bit dim to us - clearly most of us have some traits in common with ASD, to a greater or lesser degree, but that it very different from meaning that we are all on the ASD spectrum (which requires certain threshold severitites and combinations as I understand).

On the one hand, this just means that they might just be using ASD as casual shorthand. But even so this can lead unwittingly onto other things. Yesterday, DD came home saying that she had a picture on the wall which allowed her to choose her preferred activity and that all the children were told that this was just for her. Although we are very willing to consider things that would help her, I'm concerned:

(a) that this seems a classic technique for ASD children with verbal processing difficulties. Is that right? I don't think this is DD's problem. Its not that she has difficulty choosing, its that she is anxious about choosing things that make her feel 'exposed' and will opt for the safest option even if she would enjoy the other activity once she got started.

(b) that this is needlessly differentiating DD in her class and that this might make her sense of self-consciousness even worse.

OP posts:
lulubooboo · 20/05/2010 12:16

gnu-I can see your concerns clearly. I think you need to address them ASAP with the teacher and SENCO. You have been really articulate in you posts about your daughter and her character and I wonder if a letter containing your summary of her character and your understanding of her areas of concern might be a better way to giving the teacher a better insight as often it is difficult for parents opinions and information to sink in during a meeting especially as the school are holding the meeting with information they want to get across to you. You could then follow up with a meeting on how to help her develop the areas of concern you have ALL identified. I would use your posts as a starting point as everything you need the teachers to know is written above! Either way now, you need to step up and be heard.

lingle · 20/05/2010 23:12

I agree with you - using ASD as casual shorthand is not the answer. They need to use their expertise as teachers to get to know this little girl and work out what makes her tick (and what doesn't). If it does later turn out that there is something imbalanced in the way she senses or processes some types of information (which so far as I can work out is what ASD really is), then that's important to know.

(a)if your daughter learns by questioning and logical argument, and doesn't show any signs of not understanding language, then yes, these visual aids may not be appropriate. Ask why they are using them. "because they help children with ASD" is not even close to being an explanation you can accept.

(b) DS2's superb nursery teacher was very conscious of this. It is a legitimate concern.

Try not to get diverted into anger with the Senco, though she does seem to be a classic "little knowledge is a dangerous thing" person. She may need refocussing away from the tempting "is she or isn't she?" question - easy for her because she can just refer her to some other professional - and back on to the harder "how does this little girl tick?" question.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page