8 Yr Old DD Isolated and Ignored by Peers

[Bugmq]

Hi Everyone,

I'm new to Mumsnet and was driven to sign up mainly because my DD is being ignored and isolated by the kids in her class. I'm hoping that if I relate my concerns here, that I can receive feedback. I dont really have a good network to voice my concerns so I'm hoping this site will help.

My DD is probably gifted, although I dont feel that her school is picking up on this ( I suppose that's another issue). She is one of the youngest in her year 4 class but she is easily working on year six class work.

I 'm not sure why she is being isolated, whether it is because she is so clever, or if her behaviour warrants exclusion (she does have a temper). SHe never gets invited to parties and never gets asked for play dates.

The school is cliquey. There are a group of girls who's mothers all flock together and so the girls are cliquey. I never get invited to mum's nights out and I'm pretty sure none of them like me. Im not too bothered but I'm wondering if their dislike for me causes them to tell their girls not to bother with my DD? My daughter runs rings around their daughter academically so they must not be too happy about that.

I have mentioned my concerns to her teachers but they says that her behaviour is fine and that she's a star pupil.

Does anyone have any idea on how I can find out for certain why my DD is being isolated? I think it really bothers her although she doesnt mention it. She has been complaining of stomach pains in the last few months, and i'm thinking its stress related.

i think the girls in her class and their parents are extremely cruel and obviously insecure.

Thank you in advance for your support.

Do you think your daughter has picked up on the fact that you obviously think she is so much better than everyone else? This may hinder her social skills.

Does your DD go to any clubs or activities outside the school? Does she have similar problems there or does she make friends easily outside of school?

my dd is not at school yet so i can only relate from my hated experiences at school which i hated.

i developed the stomache aches pretty young 7/8 years when i didnt want to go to school, this developed over the years as did the "exclusion". i cannot honestly remember if the pains were real or not, just that i didnt want to goto school

on and off this continued and once i got into high school and couldnt persuade parents i was ill, if i didnt want to go to school, i'd get on the bus into town. i only finished high school part time with 5 gcses.

i only say this because it can turn into habit and it is much easier to stay home than go in. not that you say if she stays off.

definately get her into activities outside of school with completely different kids, if she is anything like i was she will be a different person out of school and then be happier in school.

good luck and sorry if i seem over dramatic, just struck a cord.

i think you should be more bothered about getting to like the other mothers, a play date is bound to be nicer if you can have a chat and a coffee with the mum at pick up time. make the effort, and maybe dd will reap the rewards.

I'm afraid that part of her lack of "social life" outside th school may be based in your lack of interaction with the other mums.

They get to remember about your child, and know where to find you to invite her is you are in the "ring". Otherwise your child is pretty much on her own, unless she is extremely popular.

I have to say that it has never occurred to me to tell my child not to bother with another child because I have a problem with the mother. Do you have a specific reason to think this happens? Also, although I am quite pushy overall, I can't even imagine being unhappy about my child being in a class with a child who is academically ahead.

If she's working on year six work, then that sounds like the school are giving her work that is at her level, which surely means they are picking up on her needs. Or do you mean that you are giving her stuff to do that's more like her level?

I'm aware that I'm nitpicking, but I have to say that your post came across as a bit distanced from the school. Can't blame you, if your child is unhappy there. If you have had bad experiences with the mums there, that's awful. I must say that, now that ds is in year 1, I don't spend much time making new mum friends, and that must come across as excluding to some. I don't think I'm THAT insecure though - tbh I don't think most other mums spend much time thinking about me unless they know me already.

I normally post long screeds about getting involved, which really helps making you a space within the school - helping with cake sales etc. Cliques usually look a lot more monolithic from the outside than the inside. However, this doesn't sound like you.

I do wonder whether you would do best to have a look at other possible schools. Alternatively, you don't mention any boys in your dd's class. I know one lovely girl who is a friend of my ds's, who tends to have more male friends - she finds the higher emotional temperature of girl friendships just too much I think, and a bit of chucking sticks out of trees with the lads and chatting is just the ticket for her. Worth pursuing maybe?

I hesitate to ask, but you have described your dd as having a temper. Is she physical with it? My dd had a friend who you could be describing. She is an enormously indulged only child, much loved by her parents but not terribly popular at school. If she doesn't get her own way she lashes out and this of course makes other children reluctant to play with or socialise with her. Just a thought.

Ime cleverness in itself does not normally cause jealousy towards a child who also has good social skills and cares enough about other people to not make them feel inferior.

Could it be that your dd is picking up on your attitude that the other children's mums must be jealous of you because your dd is so much better? That is an attitude that would rile most 8yos.

Personally, I think you may even be mistaken about that one. Lots of parents just don't think like that; they don't feel jealous because they can see that all children have something you can be proud of. It doesn't bother me at all that most of ds's friends are cleverer than him- as long as they don't rub his nose in it. And I have to say that though rubbing his nose in it was something that happened when they were 5, at 8 they are far too mature to do that.

I would try a few different things here.

FIrst of all, I would absolutely make sure that I did not criticise the other mums in front of your dd. I would sympathise with her about the school, but never tell her that her isolation is due to her being cleverer and better than others. This may feel comforting at the time, but it unhelpful in the long run.

Instead, I would make a deliberate effort to get involved in life at school. Joint the PTA, do a cake stall, smile at people in the playground, strike up conversations, find a nice non-threatening child to invite home for tea.

Also do sign your dd up for out of school activities. If you think her cleverness is in the way, it would be a good idea to sign her up for something she does not seem terribly good at. It is a very useful learning experience to do something you are only mediocre at and to realise that you can still have lots of fun.

Also, remember that if the other children are not bullying her, the mere fact that they do not ask her for play dates is not them being cruel and insecure: no child can have everyone round for tea and every child will want their own special friends. They don't keep tabs of who has been invited by other children in the class. Does your dd make a special point of asking children she doesn't like for tea because noone else invites them?

Unfortunately the girls are getting to the age where they start to get bitchy and cliquey I am afraid. Its not necessarily to do with the parents' opinion, although that can sometimes play a part.

My DD is 10, and is having a similar problem. She is very kind, but she is also clever and competitive, and loves being the first to get the right answer. She also likes "doing the right thing", so if she sees a child "not doing the right thing", I suspect she tells them eg "you should share that, its only fair". Do you think any of that is going on?

I cant THANK YOU all ENOUGH for your responses. A quick glance tells me there is some really good advice. I will print and read and respond later (off to work!)

Just a quick note: DD does other activities but unfortunately with many of the cliquey children who continue to ignore her at the activities.

I'll get more detailed later.

Honestly, this feedback is extremely valuable.

x

I don't think at this age kids are influenced by their parents as to who they do and don't play with at school time.

There is a girl at DD's school who sounds a bit like your DD. Pleseant enough girl, not a trouble maker but all the other girls inc my DD dislike her. According to DD she tells little fibs all the time so if someone says they've just done something, or got something then this girl will start saying she's done it but a bit better, etc. The other girls are aware she's fibbing and are fed up with it. I've tried explaining to DD that this girl is probably trying to impress the others as she is desperate to be friends and they should make allowances.

I'm not saying your DD is doing this but just giving an example about how sometimes a child can be doing something to make themselves unpopular without realising it.

If your DD has a temper is she snapping at the other kids? My DD snaps at me something terrible and I'm always saying to her that if she talks to kids at school like that they won't play with her.

I've seen a book recommended on MN before from Amazon. Its aimed at kids and called something like "How to make friends" or "how to be a friend". May be worth getting.

Also, do you invite kids back for tea?

Very likely it is six of one and half a dozen of the other: the OPs dd and the other girls all being bitchy. And as Mary says, not at all uncommon at this age.

But I wouldn't instantly blame it all on the other girls. You don't actually know what has been going on. There could be a back story.

I can remember being hauled in to the teacher to explain myself to a pair of irate parents whose dd I had not been playing with (didn't actually tell her she couldn't play, just played with other girls instead). What had actually been going on there was that this little girl had been going round the school grounds telling everybody that looking at cory's eyes made her feel sick (I had a squint). It would take a pretty enormous amount of self confidence to play with someone who felt sick just looking at you... afraid I didn't have that much . But it was only afterwards I realised that the reason the other girl hadn't told her parents what she had been saying was that she (unlike the rest of us) did not see a connection between what she had said and her isolation. Not because she was a little liar, which is how I saw it at age 9. But because she genuinely couldn't put herself in somebody else's shoes.

Ds had a similar experience in Yr 1 where his mate was always making him feel inferior by pointing out that "you are not as clever as me", "you can't do the things I can". In the end, ds got so demoralised that he didn't want to go to school at all and stoppped trying to learn because "I am not very clever, am I?". I encouraged him to play with other boys instead- and his mate's mum marched into school to complain to the teacher about it. Fortunately, the teacher had sharp eyes and was able to tell her that not only was her ds in the habit of putting other children down; he was also knocking them down physicallly and they were frightened of him. 4 years later, the other boy is still very clever, and my ds is still not at all clever, but their social skills have developed and they are now able to be great friends without anyone being made to feel inferior.

Not saying your dd is anything like this. She may just be shy, and being shy is horrible. But if she does undermine other children's self confidence, then their natural instinct will be to get away from her. And if their parents see this happening, then they will tell their dd to play with somebody else instead.

So first you need to identify which is the most plausible scenario: mere shyness, or lack of social skills. Social skills can be taught: I have a gifted dd myself and while encouraging her learning I have always been down like a ton of bricks on any boasting about it.

Shyness is harder and I suffered terribly from it myself so I can very much empathise. What would have helped me, I think, would have been more encoragement from my mother: but being very shy herself, she wasn't the best to model ways of breaking out of shyness. A lot of the time she just succeeded in making me feel that there is nothing wrong with being shy and you can't do anything about it. As a young adult I discovered that I could do something about it, and that life got a lot more fun in consequence. But it is hard for a child.

As usual I agree with everything cory says.

I think it is unlikely that her cleverness alone is driving people away. If she is boasting about it etc then that would be a different thing. I also think it is unlikely that any of the other parents would tell their dds not to play with yours and that the dds would obey if they wanted to play with her.

Personally I wouldn't be falling over myself to invite over a child with a temper whose mother wouldn't speak to me in the playground. My dcs have one of their closest friends over or a child whose parent needs childcare. I don't get on with ds1 best friends mother at all but the boys still see each other out of school. I wouldn't be inviting him over if they didn't want to play together though.

I wouldn't go out of my way to encourage a friendship with a child who they didn't mention at home because I would assume that that child was in another friendship group rather than being socially isolated. You are expecting to much to think that other parents will spot the isolation of your dd then act upon it when you are not even sure that it is happening.

What happens when you invite other girls over after school?

Stop comparing yourself to the other mums in the school. Be glad she is clever but don't go on about it and invite one of the 'cliquey' kids for a playdate.
Don't wait for them to make the first move.

I am friendly with one mother who's dd is in the same class. This other girl ignores my dd and follows the clique. I went swimming with this mother and the 2 girls and the other completely ignored my dd. I've asked this mother if she knows anything but she is oblivious (i think she just does not want to get involved in fear that her own dd will become isolated.)

my daughter is not shy. it may be possible that she is boastful at school, but i think the more isolated she becomes the more boastful she feels she needs to be.

I am also a unit helper in my dd's brownie group. the 2 leaders dd's are part of the clique (as are the mother's) and I feel that the cliquey mothers make fun of me and do all they can to diminish my dd's achievments and capabilites. I may sound paranoid but this has been happening for quite a while.

also, i am very involved with the school, fundraising, pta, etc etc.

Thanks all for your thoughts. much to think about.

All the best.

Hi Bugmq,

Your post could have been written by me about my DD1 a few years ago. She was very socially isolated and nobody knew why. I put it down to her high academic ability and my lack of social interaction too. I was chair of the PTA but it didn't seem to make any difference at picking up time in the playground. I worked hard to arrange playdates but she rarely got invited back.

Anyway in the last few months some very carefully covered up symptoms have come to light and DD1 has been diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome.

Now I'm not saying I think your daughter definitely has this but there is growing evidence that many girls who have Asperger's and are highly intelligent are not being diagnosed because they are very adept at masking their symptoms.

I think you should have a look at this site
www.yourlittleprofessor.com/girls.html
and maybe follow a few links. Could this explain her difficulties and her temper? I had to look long and hard before I began to recognise it in my daughter but having the diagnosis has helped her to understand her social difficulties and there are ways to help her. It has been a positive step.

If I'm completely barking up the wrong tree then please write me off as bonkers, forgive me and move on.

You say your daughter doesn't mention being isolated.

How do you know for sure that it bothers her?

I was isolated and ignored sometimes at my school- it is the way of eight year old girls, I believe. Also, it changed on a term by term, sometimes even a week by week basis. By far the worst thing for me was my mother making a massive deal out of it. (She also majored on the "academically gifted" theory, which was complete rubbish in my case, I was isolated because I was a bit socially gauche actually and probably not the nicest friend to be around, though that changed in time).

I think what I am trying to say is talk to your daughter, don't let on that you think the other mothers are cruel or that your daughter is gifted, and don't steam on in unless you have clear evidence of sustained bullying which is genuinely upsetting your daughter. There are some good other ideas on this thread.

I was also a bit gauche at that age, and not really terribly interested in either having friends or being a good friend. I think it must have been this that made me a little isolated, rather than my also being academically gifted.

My own dd is at least as gifted and that has never stood in her way. Probably because she is more able to adapt to other people and think about what might make them feel good about themselves than I was.

I can see how feeling isolated might turn into a bit of a vicious circle:
you then comfort yourself with the thought that you are at least cleverer than these other girls, that makes the other girls feel uncomfortable around you, so they include you less and less, so that makes you cling to the thought of your specialness even more... In fact, I'm not sure that didn't happen to me. I did break the circle eventually, but think I could have done so earlier with the right support.

Just picking up on some of the things you have said -

"I never get invited to mum's nights out and I'm pretty sure none of them like me...I'm wondering if their dislike for me causes them to tell their girls not to bother with my DD?"

"i think the girls in her class and their parents are extremely cruel"

"I feel that the cliquey mothers make fun of me and do all they can to diminish my dd's achievments and capabilites. I may sound paranoid but this has been happening for quite a while."

Reading your posts it makes me wonder whether this issue is about your dd or more about you feeling that you are not liked and feeling excluded. And actaully, yes, I do think you sound a little paranoid in some of the things you say - eg that the other children and parents are cruel, and make fun of you. But I also know that it is very easy to think like this when you are feeling a little lonely and on the fringes of things.

You say you haven't got much of a support network to turn to - do you wish you could be included more with the other mums? I know you say you're not that bothered but I think a lot of people would be able to sympathise with you and maybe offer advice if that is part of the issue.