Pooey pants!

[Toucheturtle]

I have turned to mumsnet for fresh advice on what I suspect is a common problem - my son's total refusal to do a poo anywhere but in his pants. I am at my wits end with him, he is FOUR AND A HALF, and been happily weeing in the loo since he was 3. He is my third child so I would like to think I am an old hand at this. Tried most "normal" methods ie star charts, presents to aim for, "big boy" talk, watching me, watching daddy, lots of calm chat, Syrup of Figs after a chat with the pharmacist, sitting on the loo at regular times etc etc. He point blank refuses to tell me when he needs the toilet, simply goes in his pants. He is also dry at night, bright, articulate and a regular boy in every way except this! What else can I try? All reasonable suggestions gratefully accepted! I draw the line at fitting a colostomy bag!

Sounds like withholding which can then lead to chronic constipation. It could be a power thing as to the reason why he's withholding or it could be something else but I suggest you get a referral from your GP to see a paediatric specialist bowel consultant.
Also, check out www.eric.org.uk which will help you with ideas to get him to poo in the loo. Is he at school and have either the pre-school or school he's at tried helping you? Have you asked to check the toilet faciities there as dirty toilets can be a cause of withholding poos as they might not want to sit on the loo etc. Is he interested in getting clean pants on straight after doing the poo or does he sit there and not tell you until you realise he's done it?
Does he attempt to wipe himself?

Many thanks for such a quick response, a number of my friends have said I should now turn to the doctor, I think I have been in denial of that as my middle child has a number of special needs and so hospitals etc aren't new to me! What most disturbs me about his behaviour is his total denial of everything pooey - he would sit in his soiled pants all day if I didn't clean him, it disturbs him not one jot! His nursery school loos are very modern, though not particularly private, and he never poos whilst there in the mornings, he saves it for home, so though they get him to sit he won't do anything. The whole situation developed once the toilet became involved, when in nappies he went as regular as clockwork, 3 times a day after every meal. The weeing in the loo was achieved fairly easily, in a very relaxed way as I am not one to push potty training too early, I prefered to wait til my kids could tell me when they needed to go. I will look at the eric.org, thanks for that, and will head to the docs. Watch this space!

3 times a day, as regular as clockwork after every meal? I know all kids are different but neither of my two did THAT many poos a day - well, not since they were teeny tiny babies. I don't know any other nappy-wearing-age children do it that often either.

Could someone come in and maybe tell me that many poos a day is common - if not, perhaps this may be an indication of a problem which may be making this worse?? food allergy or something?? Completely guessing here.....

Curlyhairedassasin - my ds (nearly 3) does about 4-5 poos a day - used to be more when he was younger..

Okay - well it's good that you can pinpoint it to starting to use toilets. It does sound though that it's more a developmental thing due to being quite happy to sit in pooey pants all day. I think the GP would be wrong not to refer him straight away.
curly - that's fine for poos - as long as they are about a number 4 on the Bristol Poo Chart. If they were sloppy in consistencey that many times a day, then food allergy would be my first thought. Google the poo chart and see what you think. Think it will be on the eric site if you can't find on google.

Didn't mean to sound harsh - just that know how long it can take (coz of DD, now 8) to get them to do anything about it all!

Wow! Well you live and learn! There is actually a Poo Chart in existence. I'll definitely google that when I get a minute.

And I had no idea that 3 poos a day is normal!

My goodness, I went off and read the eric.org website. Bubbles!! They worked! thanks for Link luciemule

Youngest DS (3) does a lot of withholding for days at a time and poops in pants etc. I've been reading lots of poo threads lately.

He'd not gone for days again and all day has been standing up and rocking and looking shifty etc. On eric.org I read about getting them to blow bubbles while they sit on the loo. He did it. it worked. I'm astounded.

oh I hope this wasn't a one off and it works again!

What happens is they withhold for whatever reason, then the poo builds up in the bowel and causes a bit of a blockage. Yet, sneaky poo (runny poo that ends up in pants) escapes out around the blocked poo and it looks like they're not constipated at all, when in fact, they have faecal compaction. The solution is something like Movicol Paediatric Plain - a stool softener that adds water to the poo, therefore making it easier to pass.

Over time, if the child doesn't get used to doing regular poos, their bowel gets slack and soiling occurs. They can't feel when they need to go and it becomes an endless cycle of withholding and soiling.

Just to point out, that the pooing in pants thing isn't them being naughty - it's them trying not to let the poo out so if you see them wriggling, sitting on their feet (very common) and hiding under the table etc, try to coax them to sit on the loo.

Hi Touche,

I have a 4.5 yrs DS and he's only just getting the hang of poos. He goes usually 3x a day so it's been a nightmare!

We had tried everything we could think of (bribery, reward charts etc etc) and I spoke to my health visitor in desperation. My DS is a bright, active, healthy little boy.

What he wanted was attention.

We thought we gave him enough attention but not enough for him. I also found that if I removed one toy from him each time he pooed his pants (and gave them ALL back if he had a poo in the potty/toilet) he recognised the pattern and would have accidents through the day yet just before bed poo in potty. Grr

So, he has a reward AT THE END OF EACH DAY. You need to agree with him on a morning what this is and tell your nursery/child care so they can help. This reward is based on your attention eg play a game with him , colour in with him, watch TV with him, running round the garden with him. Something that involves a bit of your time and it's something that he WANTS to do. If he's not interested he'll have accidents.

I've also noticed he'll need to go after each meal, so I concentrate on taking him then. (I have to insist on this). Ask him if he wants you to stay outsde the door too. My DS likes privacy if he's on the toilet.

My DS has gone to nearly 100% poos in pants to virtually none. There are still some but it's more in line with too ingrossed in play rather than being lazy/wanting attention.

Best of luck

My eldest did this until he was about 9. Yes, that's right 9! Not all the time, sometimes not for weeks on end, but quite frequently. We never got to the bottom of it (no pun intended) and he just cured it on his own.

Being an old hand in all things constipation/soiling/encopresis, I can say that it could take a while to sort out. Ds was in year 1 when we first went to the GP (having had the problem for nearly a year) and is now in year 3.

The first step for us and ds was to completely take the pressure off him, telling him we knew it was not his fault or even in his control.

We started giving him loads of praise for telling us when he had dirty pants (he used to deny, deny, deny too) and then started the road to clearing the impaction.

Once the impaction was cleared, the ongoing thing has been to keep him drinking loads (and I mean loads) of water and sitting on the loo every day. He still does not get the message that he needs to 'go' until the very last minute, so his bowel is still not as it should be and so the sitting on the loo every day is very important.

He gets rewards for drinking water and sitting on the loo every day rather than for pooing in the loo as these are things he has control over.

I'm not sure if this is any help but good luck with the GP.

Bubbles didn't work again at least not yet, BUT are still continuing to be a fun way to get him to sit for a while and try.

Sounds exactly like my DS1. We did what Daftapeth did and took the pressure off because he was becoming constipated and really upset about the thought of pooing ona toilet.

He wanted to go back to nappies (he was only three)so I let him and a few weeks later asked him to let me know when he wanted his big boy pants. He said he wanted to wear them again and just got it from then.

I know it's not that simple for everyone and so many people told us not to put him back in nappies but I just couldn't bear how distressed he was. They need to decide when their ready and it's amazing how much pressure we put on them without even realising we're doing it.

Hope it gets sorted.