Behaviour at toddler groups.. What's normal? (Warning - I'm probably overthinking!)

[starsareshining]

I think this may be a long post so I apologise in advance. I have a two year old son who has not had many chances to play with other children. We've visited toddler groups a couple of times but I'm always too worried to go back. At the moment I have a lot of anxiety issues and absolutely no confidence so I really don't feel comfortable and safe with going until I've discussed it first. I just don't know how to react to other people's children... The few times that I have been (it's usually to a surestart group by the way) I've noticed that most moms are watching their children and stopping snatching/hitting etc. But what are you supposed to do when it continues or when their parents aren't watching? I had no experience of children before I had my son and I don't know any other parents so I really don't know what is normal and what isn't.

I just get the feeling that he isn't enjoying himself very much there. He goes to a sunday school group with my parents on Sunday mornings and has a great time. The other children are fairly nice and it's all quite friendly because their parents all know each other anyway. He plays at the shopping centre once a week too but he's with his grandad so I don't really know what goes on there. A couple of the people at the toddler group we've attended seem a bit... rough or unfriendly. I've lived in this area for all of my life so have... experienced (?) some of these people before.
I was bullied throughout my school life so I know that I'm probably just being overprotective and letting my anxious thoughts get out of control. The problem is that my son has no idea of what to do when other children snatch or push him and neither do I! Most of the time the other parent steps in and stops it but sometimes they're not watching. Obviously, I don't want to start telling other people's children off when they're just behaving as children do but I don't know what to do. He just looks very upset and looks to me to do something. I feel almost as though I'm letting him down by saying 'Oh, it's not the end of the world' and moving him onto another toy when he was expecting me to do something about it. A couple of the children have really seemed not too nice and I got the feeling that their parents weren't bothered by their behaviour. My son is very well behaved for a toddler (I'm hoping he'll skip the mad tantrum stage altogether ) so he looks to me to get permission to take toys when we're out. I might have misinterpreted it though. It might be that he's far too 'wussy' (as my mom puts it) to just pick up toys and play. He does seem very aware of things that are going on and has only ever tried to take something a couple of times. I think he understands that other children are playing with the toys and just tells me that he wants it instead of trying to take it. So he seems very surprised when the other kids just take things from him. There was one case of him very nervously approaching a toy which he wasn't sure was being played with and asked if it was ok to take so I encouraged him to get it. Another girl a little older than him had heard all of this and when he finally reached for it she just stuck her hand in front of it so that he couldn't get it. Her dad was standing right next to us and said 'Oh play nice' in a couldn't care less kind of way and unsurprisingly, she didn't take any notice. I really didn't know what to do. I know it seems like such a minor issue and I feel like such an idiot for typing it out. I can see how it sounds! Please don't be too harsh on me.. I'm struggling with things at the moment and probably wrapping him up in cotton wool

The only time I've ever said anything to another child at one of these groups was when her behaviour was actually quite concerning. I don't know who usually goes to the groups so I didn't know whether she regularly visits. She was quite a lot older than the other children, possibly about 5, and I wondered whether she had learnng difficulties or had other problems when I noticed the things she was doing. The problem was that she wasn't being supervised by the woman she was with. The woman wasn't her mom and seemed almost.. too shy to say anything to her about it. A couple of times I saw her notice what the girl was doing but then look away like she didn't want to have to deal with it and felt embarrassed. I didn't see her smile once and she didn't appear to be having fun at all. She just walked around htiting other children and stopping them having fun. At one point she was following my son around and taking away anything he picked up, then teasing him with it by holding it just out of reach. I also saw her trying to trap other children's fingers and hitting another girl in the back so it wouldn't be noticed by her mom. It was really weird. I'm usually unsure about when to step in but she hit my son on the head with the toy she was teasing him with and her adult was taking no notice so I walked over and gently said that it's not nice to snatch things from other children and she must be gentle because he's smaller than her. I suggested that they share the toy and tried to offer another one but she looked absolutely terrified. I felt awful. She didn't speak at all, just stared at me. I really didn't know how to react. She nodded so I guess she understood what I'd said but I was really kind of upset by her reaction. She didn't move or do anything. I felt like I'd terrified her and I was trying to be very nice about it all. Then my overthinking brain kicked in and I was dreading the moment some other mom came over and told me that I'd scared her daughter and everyone looked and I'd never be able to go there again. Ugh. I know I sound insane when I'm writing all of this out but I can't control my mind at times. These feel like huge issues to me and I know that they're probably not. I dont even know whether that girl would be there again. But I couldn't stop asking myself whether I'd done the right thing. I felt like a monster! A little while later she pushed over a toy that a few of the kids were sitting on so they all fell and banged their faces. She also tried to hit a baby and then lay down on a baby mat herself and just stared at the baby's mom. Afterwards, I was playing a game with a little girl in the ballpit where she was throwing balls and I was trying to catch them. This 5 year old girl got in and played too but she seemed like she was trying to hurt me more than play with me. She was throwing the balls very hard and directly at my face. I couldn't read her face at all because she showed no expression. It was actually quite disturbing (for a worrier like me). I know that I wasn't the only mom there who was a bit concerned by her behaviour but they all seem so confident and seem like they know what they're doing. I almost feel as though everytime I walk into one of those places I regress back to childhood instead of being strong for my son. I've talked this over with my partner and he assures me that I'm being mad (as he often does) but I really don't think I can face going back there until somebody's virtually slapped me across the face and then explained exactly what happens in these awkward situations.

I'm sorry that there's such a lot of text and so little content! I hope I don't sound like too much of an idiot. I really don't want to be an overly protective parent but I think it's happening anyway

Bloody hell, that was a long post. Sorry! I am finding it difficult to control my anxiety at the moment!

I posted it twice too I'm really sorry. I feel like such an idiot now.

Calm down - you are not being an idiot, we all post twice from time to time. I think you are being very brave to have tried to go to playgroup several times when it makes you so anxious. I am not up to date with current playgroup protocol but I am sure various mums on here will give you good advice. Otherwise you could perhaps speak to whover is in charge and ask them what is acceptable.

Your post reminded me of my DH, an only child who had a very hard time at school. We were invited for dinner at his old school, which is now a hotel. He was SO uncomfortable the whole time we were there, couldn't eat and felt his collar was choking him, positively ran from the building as soon as he decently could. It is strange but understandable why certain situations can take you back, all of a sudden, to an anxiety ridden memory from your childhood.

I know exactly what you mean about not being sure what you should say to other children. I felt the same when I first went to toddler groups, and would always err on the side of being polite, even to the detriment of my own DS. So if someone took a toy by DS was playing with, I'd just say OK and let them have it and find something else for him to play with, even if he was howling.

But then I met a friend there who was completely different - and had a much better way of handling these things! Instead of polite, she was just completely FAIR in all her toddler dealings! So if her little boy was trying to take a turn on the slide and someone pushed in, she'd say 'You know what, my DS was first so let him go down and then you can have a go.' Equally, it worked the other way round so she'd make sure if her DS was pushing in, he'd have to take his turn.

It sounds like you're trying too hard to be polite, rather than making sure things are fair to your little one. Does that make sense?

Ok you dont sound like an idiot but you do sound very anxious - do you mind me asking if youre getting any help with that?

FWIW I think every parent in the world feels like theyre the only one who doesnt know what theyre doing.

You are overthinking things Im afraid. If I were you I think Id be forcing myself to go to a group a week maybe?

Try and get your son to come out of his shell a wee bit,but remember it may just be the way he is too.

In terms of other kids I just say 'dont do that please its not nice' or 'you can have a shot later' for example. Equally if my ds is being a little sod challenging then he gets put in his place too and told to wait or share or whatever.

You need to build up your confidence. Youre not at school now, please try not to let those demons get to you.

I know how cruel and horrible and difficult anxiety is - it can be really debilitating.

Thanks for your replies. I was certain I was about to be told what an idiot I am.

I don't think it's so much that the whole group is rubbish, there were just a couple of things which made me quite nervous. Now that I'm thinking about it more rationally most of the stuff going on there was fairly normal.

BrightonMama - What you're saying does make sense. I think that's actually what was bothering me so much. I've always been big on being fair. So I don't let my own son snatch and I'm always watching to make sure he doesn't hurt other children. That's why I think he's confused when I just let other children take things from him. He doesn't seem to know how to stand up for himself yet.

I don't mind you asking whether I'm getting help for the anxiety.. I have been considering it but then some days I feel so much better. I am trying to work things through on my own and I have seen some improvement which is why I'm considering toddler groups again. I really feel like he's missing out. I'm currently reading through quite a big pile of self help books on various topics

I am trying to build up my confidence but it's not just that I was bullied at school. I just generally have very low self-esteem to the point where I somtimes can't bring myself to leave the house because I don't want people to look at me. I am getting out more now, just not been on any buses or into any buildings yet I almost literally have no friends at the moment and the partner is a sort of long-distance thing (although we do see each other pretty regularly, but he's not around during the week) so I am just left alone with my thoughts getting more and more crazy.

So how would you deal with the girl continuing to be nasty when her dad's told her not to? My mom suggested that I say 'that girl isn't being nice so we'll play somewhere else' but that seems incredibly confrontational in front of her dad. It's just asking for a confrontation. I'm also a bit worried that the other children's parents might be a bit funny if i tell their kids to wait or share. Most of them seem fine but some of them aren't exactly reasonable people..

I suppose the girl could have been younger than I thought. I still think that her behaviour was very unusual and that the woman with her shouldn't have let her carry on hitting/bullying other children for the entire session. And I think that, if I'm honest I felt a bit intimidated by the girl's dad. I've seen him around the area a couple of times being a bit of an idiot. Maybe that was pre-children. I don't know. He seems to have quite a bad attitutde and looks physically scary because he has scars all over his face. I know the scars could be from anything, he could have gotten them whilst saving an elderly woman from a knife wielding madman, but I just don't think i'd feel comfortable with saying anything else to him. I know I'm the one being a wuss now. Perhaps LadyintheRadiator was right and I should just go to another group. Thanks for all of your advice anyway

You just say 'please dont do that' - if she keeps doing it you say 'no, I said stop it' and then maybe move away if she persists.

Oh and I have a 3 year old who looks 5/6 but in every other way is a 3 year old so do watch out for that.

I look after children for a living and go to toddler groups way too often! I live by the rules, 'treat others as you would like to be treated'.

So if you sons snatches a toy, take it back from him and give it back to the original todler and say "sorry son this little boy was playing with it first, lets find something else to play with."

If your son had something first and it got snatched from him, then just say to the snatcher, "sorry my son had that first lets give it back (and take it from them whilst talking, some wont give them up willingly so don't ask them to give it back), you can play with it in a minute / why don't you go and get that ball over there".

With the little girl, I would err on the side of caution, as your son didn't actually have it and although you feel the little girl was being 'malicious' it's likely she wanted to play with you/you put the idea in her head etc. Although she could have been being a bit mean too of course! I would just say, "oh dear son, we weren't quick enough. Never mind when this little girl has finished maybe she will let you have a go". most of the time they hand it over at that, but if they don't just play next ot the little girl until she gives it up. Not always practical but the best in a bad situation.

At the end of the day if you're treating these other children fairly and in the same way you treat your son and another parent has an issue with it that's their tough luck (assuming you aren't a behaviour nazi caning other children of course!).

Good luck with everything.

please excuse the typos I'm rushing!

i think playgroup generally is a bit of a black hole for parental anxiety.

i find myself getting very wound up - no needreally,just watch your kid and make sure they behave (no taking toys or hitting)and your role is fulfilled.

If you find playgroup so stressful have you thought of trying something more structured like Tumbletots or a music group to start with? At this sort of group there will be someone 'in charge' and you won't get the sort of confrontations with other children that you're describing.

Then when you're confidence is up a bit you could move on the toddler group - you might meet someone to go along with too.

I think most people feel awkward about disciplining other people's children, no matter how gently, or how justified you are in doing it, so you are definitely not alone!

It gets easier when you know the children and the parents, but can still be tricky. I think as long as you always say things nicely 'no poppet, I think x was playing with that first, why don't you take turns and you play with this instead' then people can't really take offence, and if they do then you're best off avoiding them anyway.

Having said that, when I've been in situations where another child has really behaved badly and upset mine (by hitting, shouting etc) and their parent hasn't noticed or intervened, I've tended to just remove my child from the situation - pick them up and move them to another area and toy. Possibly wussy, but less stressful, and the other child gets the message that nobody will want to play with them if they behave like that.

And I second the advice about visiting as many groups as you can - they are all different and some are much more friendly than others. Also ask your Surestart centre if they run any classes (eg toddler music, dancing type ones) - these can be easier if you don't know many people as there's not so much pressure to chat, and the parents are more likely to be watching their children, so less potential for unmediated conflicts! Good luck

You sometimes have to tell off other people's DC if the parent isn't watching - they shouldn't get away with stuff. DH had to tell a 4yo off the other day because she threw sand in his eyes and the mother didn't even bat an eyelid so he said to her 'that was bad' in a stern voice. DS thought it was a good idea so copied her...

Don't worry so much but as others have said, find another more friendly group. Perhaps a smaller one or try your local play park??

Been there. Have you thought of contacting your local NCT (National Childbirth trust?) They tend to have a contact Mum who has children of her own and arranges coffee mornings or outings that you could join which tends to be slightly smaller and maybe able to put you in contact with another Mum who lives near you with a child of a similar age.

Choose an environment that you are happy with then your son will be happy there too.

Re the anxiety. Worth getting in touch with your health visitor as I suffered with Post natal depression and it can be a very lonely horrid place to be but with the right help you can make a head way. My local GP, health visitor gave me loads of great advice and support and helped me bring my confidence back up.

It sounds like you are doing a fantastic job with your little boy as he sounds very considerate and caring.

I've attended a few toddler groups in the past few years and they vary greatly. Some mothers are constantly by their kids side and others are just there for the chat and ignore their kids. Inmy opinion it is normal for toddlers to try to take things off other children but as the adult you just say "no, xxx(whatever their name is) is playing with that now but you can have it in a minute." Offer an alternative and say that they can swap toys in a few minutes. Usually the snatchy child doesn't really want the toy in question, its just a control thing. A toy that another kid is enjoying greatly is so much more appealing than anything else.Quite often if your child loses interest in the toy in question the other child doesn't want it anymore but will want the next thing your kid goes for! I wouldn't shout at anyone elses kids but sometimes you do need to be firm and may need to call the parent on board if they are ignoring/ don't see the situation. Again you don't need to be confrontational, you can say something that sounds friendly to the parent to keep them on your side. Usually once you chat to the other mums and get to know them over the weeks the ones you say are rough could turn out to be what I call "rough diamonds" and you may find they are more approachable than you think. I've had to step in before and say to a child who was hitting my son "ah ah, we don't hit here. Your mummy would be very cross".
Try to keep persevering with the toddler groups. The best one I found was attached to a church. The kids were a little quieter. My son is quite shy too. It's good for them to try to build their social skills before going to big school.

Best wishes

Melanie

x

Stars - Have you got a local HomeStart? Some of them have groups which are really nice and are small. They also have very good groundrules about play and expected behaviours. You can just give them a call and they'll come out and have a chat with you. Might be worth exploring as it could help with your anxiety?

awww, starsareshining, you sound so lovely!!!

really, you do. your son is very lucky to have a mum who cares so much.
I agree with the other posters that you ARE overthinking it a lot.

I think perhaps what you take as parents not caring what their kids are doing or not noticing is just them being more relaxed about it.
you go into such minute detail in your post... i am sure when i am at toddler groups i don't notice that much! not saying that's necessarily a bad thing on your part... just that it's maybe unusual, and that those other parents are just letting the kids get on with being kids whereas you are much more focussed on your child

If you happen to be in the south-east I'd gladly meet up with you and go to some toddler groups, or just take the children out to the park or something

tbh, I think toddler groups are, on the whole, more for the mums to socialise than for the children. your little boy will get just as much from going to the park with you, or meeting up in smaller groups with friends as he does from larger settings. he has plenty of time to learn to play with others, i am sure ypou;ll put him into playgroup or nursery when he is older, so don't worry too much about that aspect

I'd definitely agree that it'd be worth seeing your GP about your anxiety. you don't want to look back on this in years to come and feel that you missed out on your son's childhood because you were so worried all the time... some days you will feel better, but it's worth seeing him and maybe thinking about anti-anxiety drugs for those days when it isn't so great?