Late(ish) pointing and language develoment

[ItNeverRainsBut]

If your child didn't start pointing at things until 18 months or more, what was his/her language development like? I'm asking because DS (17 months) doesn't point to things (although he can follow a point), and also isn't saying much.

slow! but we met on your late talkers thread so I guess you knew that.

My dd pointed late (17/18 months) because she has physical difficulties and couldn't isolate her index finger to point! She wasn't really babbling at this age either but was saying some single words - dada, hiya, mama. She talks and points loads now though although her speech isn't terribly clear - she's nearly 3 btw.

Hi again lingle Yes, I remember you from that thread. (And by the way, I don't know if I have said before but I think your posts on language development are really good. You inspired me to request "More Than Words" from my local library; currently eagerly awaiting it as I'm sure I'll learn useful things from it.)

I suppose I'm wondering how many children who point late then go on to develop language normally, or to be one of those kids who "didn't say a word but started talking in sentences overnight". Or whether pointing late-ish is a signpost for language delay.

That's interesting Minty. Do you think your DD would have pointed if she'd been able to physically? Did she gesture towards things in other ways?

"whether pointing late-ish is a signpost for language delay."

I suspect it is - It's one of those complex pre-verbal gestures that should underlie language isn't it? DS2 just didn't realise he could use these. I recall an attempted point at 2.1 when he was desperate to show us a train, but it was whole hand. Have you seen that Greenspan passage I quote a lot about how he distinguishes language problems that will take care of themselves from more deep-rooted problems? Will dig it out for you otherwise (Greenspan thinks there should be other dxs kind of between NT and ASD by the way - he uses the term multisensory system disorder).

I tend to think of these processing issues now in terms of how deep they go into the foundations of communication.

On top (level 1) you've got "mere" speech problems (though articulation issues are their own separate problem of course)- so it's not really a processing problem.
Level 2 you've got problems finding the word to use - so it's still just an expressive language problem but there's a processing element.
Level 3 you've got problems processing what other people are saying to you - receptive language problem - welcome to my life!
Level 4 you've got problems using gesture to show people stuff....(this was my DSs' deepest problem level).
Level 5 you've got problems following other people's gestures/eye pointing, etc. (Ds2 may have had a bit of this - can't remember)
Level 6 you've got problems following things like body language and facial expression
Level 7 you can't imitate.

The deeper it goes, the more your key relationships are likely to be disrupted. Greenspan defines the ASD borderline as the point where your relationships with your primary carers are disrupted.

Someone who understands child development more can probably correct this. I guess you just work backwards to see what's at what level - something a baby should be able to do is obviously very foundational.

This is why I now think that there's a kind of language-led autism that's exactly what my kids have - it just goes that bit deeper.

Shared attention is what you should look for. Pointing is an obvious and common way to share attention but there are other ways. My ds1 was not particularly late to point but shared attention was limited to his own interests.

Lingle-I really find your posts so great-your insights are fab and particularly relevant for me because whilst DS is on the autistic spectrum, he is not a clear cut case and I really suspect he has sensory processing issues more than anything as well as some verbal dyspraxia which is resolving. He has no receptive delay (never has had), pointed, waved, engaged as a baby etc etc & even now has a good reciprocal relationship with me,his sister and others close to him. He just crashes and burns in the school environment turning into someone I dont recognise .
Anyway just wanted to say thanks for all your posts...

"He just crashes and burns in the school environment turning into someone I dont recognise"

Oh the poor poor darling. I hated hated hated reading reports that sounded nothing like the child I knew.

thanks for your kind words.

DS2 (almost 5) pointed at 18.5 months and his language development was slower (Hi Lingle!).

He started school in September and his expressive language has rocketed, so much so that he is now in the realms of 'normal' according to SALT. His receptive language is still a bit behind, as in understanding certain language concepts, but I was/am amazed at how much being with his peers in school has made such a difference . Now, he is cheeky, argues back, jokes about 'Poo-poo', 'bums' etc...just like any other 5 year old

cyberseraphim, he will look at something I am looking at or something I point to - is that what you mean by shared attention?

lingle that Greenspan stuff sounds really interesting. What book/article is it in, as I would like to read more?

The book i have is "The Child with Special Needs" and the following passage is particularly useful.

"By 18 months a child should be warmly engaged and capable of initiative and two-way communication. She should also be able to use complex gestures to communicate what she wants - taking her mother's hand and leading her to the door or toy chest, or pointing, for example. Without the use of words, she should be communicating with her parents, clearly understanding much of what they say to her, and communicating many of her own wishes back. If by 18 months the child can do these things, her gestural communicaction is developing on track and the building blocks of symbolic expression and language are present. .......The child who has a circumscribed language problem that will take care of itself will be mastering these preverbal gestural communication patterns."

["The Child with Special Needs", Greenspan, page 386]

"he will look at something I am looking at or something I point to - is that what you mean by shared attention?"

Yes following a point is shared attention so that sounds normal. I think all you can do at that age is just to keep an eye on things.

Thanks both (and lingle, thanks for typing out that passage). He does do things like try to move me to the door. I am not worried about anything other than his language development. He is in some ways similar to his older sister at the same age; she has delayed receptive and expressive language development (though greatly improved in recent months) so I suppose I'm wondering if his development will be similar. And whether it is All My Fault.

Hi - not meaning to worry you but try to discourage him from the moving you to the door thing. Make sure he points at the door - or hopefully soon, vocalises something like 'door'. Definitely not your fault, most of language development is on auto pilot and can't be affected that much by the parent (assuming within the very wide norm). Anecdotes about the effect of birth order, or whether the family are 'talkers' or not, do not bear up to serious analysis.

"whether it is All My Fault. "

I think we can safely eliminate that one.

Cyber - are you sure it's right to discourage a child from leading you to the door, etc? I'm not sure I'd agree with you there.

Well I suppose it depends - if the child is NT then it's just a phase but if not, it's probably better to 'push' for a little more development - but this would only be if the problem was a pervasive one and the child was not using any other form of communication - but it seem the OP's child is not like that. Also if child is leading in the normal way that's fine too but dragging an adult as a tool is not something to encourage - I wouldn't anyway

When he does something like lead me to the door, I try to say a short phrase that describes what I think he wants - "open door. Mummy open door", or "Up. DS wants up", or whatever, while I'm doing that thing. I don't delay doing the thing though, as he gets grumpy pretty quickly.

I do know in my rational brain that it's not my fault, but I then I have regular moments of anxiety.

xxx

Just bumping this briefly in the hope that Lingle will see it as I really want to follow up on something you said:

"(Greenspan thinks there should be other dxs kind of between NT and ASD by the way - he uses the term multisensory system disorder)"

-- if you could point me in the direction of where he's written about this, so I can read more about it, I'd be hugely grateful. (I am wondering whether my children's communication development delays relate to a wider family history of AS, and if so, how. Wondering whether to explore this with wider family members but it's sooo sensitive.)

take a look at this link

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/special_needs/742398-Interesting-article-re-differentiating-asd-from-other-diso rders

I always find it by doing an advanced search on "I think I love you" as two of us said that to the lady who started the thread!

But I believe he writes about multisystem sensory disorder in "The Child with Special Needs".

Touchingly, I read in his obituary that his dreadful prose style (he had people to "smooth" it for him but it's still quite hard going) may have been due to having his own minor learning difficulty as a child, and that his experience of learning to compensate for this gave him the determination to see each child as an individual. He was a great man.

Anyway, re your family history, can't you just ask the grandparents whether you/DH were late talkers/when you started to talk?

following a point is more important tnan pointing. it is wondering what someone else is thinking which is the signifier to communication

ItNeverRainsBut, I can see this thread is quite old but just wanted to let you know that my ds was late pointing and talking. He didn't say his first word until 18 months and I can't really remember him pointing at all until he was 2ish.

I now have a 10 month dd and I can see how far behind her he was in all kinds of communication, babbling, gesturing etc.

BUT he is now 3.7 and completely normal, language skills very comparable to all his peers. He has a wide vocab, is understandable to all, makes up jokes, plays with rhyming and abbreviations. I'm not sure quite when he caught up but he definitely has! IME late talking/pointing can just sort itself out when the child catches up, hope this is the case for your ds.

Oh and he definitely wasn't a "didn't say a word and then started talking in sentences overnight" child either - normal gradual development, just a bit later than everyone else!

following this with interest. db has 14 month twin who aren't pointing and aren't following a point. When I questioned it as I have 2 asd ds he told me twons can be 6 months behind everyone else. Never heard this before though. I told them to try makaton to enhance what they were saying so they've enrolled on some sort of baby signing class.

interesting kalo12. My DS2 did follow a point at some time much earlier than learning to point himself.

Liege, you're bound to be right - some kids just have a maturational lag. I suppose the more time goes on, the less likely that is IYSWIM. Obviously no-one would consider a child who couldn't talk till 5 or 6 to be "just a late talker".

btw, in "More than Words" they advise against trying to teach a child to point until they can "share attention" ie look at something then look at you to see if you've spotted it too. I don't know why they say this.

Thanks for the links and book ref lingle - appreciate you coming back to this thread to answer that.

LeigeandLief - thanks for your post - always reassuring to read stories like yours.