Help me work out the logistics for rewarding good/restricting bad behaviour in 3.8yo DS

[papillonqueen]

I'm having loads of problems with DS who is 3.8. He has got some behavioural problems that are still being looked into but he is very hyperactive, extremely intelligent, has a vocab of a 6 year old, a really vicious temper, and is really insecure. He used to be very good about saying please & thank you etc and now he seems to either be jumpy and nervous (as if we've beaten it into him, we haven't) or extremely rude "GIVE ME THAT" "GET OUT OF MY WAY". Every time he is told no, no matter what the reason or issue, he screams blue murder. He's hitting, punching, kicking. He never stops running, howling like a dog etc and generally being very manic and loud.

When we can get him to calm down enough to have a conversation or play a game he is really wonderful company! He is just so aggressive. He grunts and yowls at us at the slightest glance. We're finding it really hard to be around him and cope with this day in and day out. He does go to preschool and is getting on well there. He can, if he chooses, behave fairly "normally". Or, if he gets himself worked into a state he walks in a tight circles and licks his hand while humming. Still they dont think he is autistic because he does not fit all the triad of impairments.

Anyway, I am trying to work out a way to stop all of us being so miserable. I know he isnt happy and he can tell we are tightly wound up around him, I feel terrible about this but its so hard not to be. It isnt his fault, if anything its mine but I just dont know what to do, I have done my very best by him.

I have these little colourful plastic monkeys that their paws hook onto the next ones tails and I was thinking of having them in a clear jar and each time he did something well or nice adding a monkey to the chain hanging from the ceiling. With some sort of reward at the end of it all. Should there also be a penalty for the bad things he is doing, like punching us? What should the practical aspects of this system be so it is fair and clear for him?

Thanks very much for your help.

Gosh, it sounds extreme BUT my dd is 3.11 and she is struggling with emotions too.

I would give the rewards a go, but 'ignore' the bad behaviour for now. So just go overboard on the 'aw, you're being sooo lovely'. Punching - calmly and firmly remove him/you away and say 'do not hit me, it is not nice'. My dd rapidly improves if I kinda pretend she is being lovely and kind iykwim.

I think he might be struggling for attention and not able to cope with negative emotions v well. Am trying with my dd to give her some outlets - 'smelly poo pants!' for disappointment or throwing a cushion... and trying to explain, it;s ok to be cross but not ok to hurt people (or bite - as she does ). Regards 'give me that' - I do a 'excuse me' and she says it properly. She does it a lot though !!

Def speak to the preschool if you think his behaviour is concerning - they will know whether it is usual 3yo behaviour or something more extreme.

Practically I would say I will give you a monkey when I am really pleased with you - and ask HIM to suggest things he could do. Then maybe come up with three focuses (eg ask for things nicely).

I wouldn't come up with a 'big' reward, as the praise (visual reminder: monkeys) should be enough - maybe every now and again, spring a treat on him - ooh, we;ve had such a lovely day and chatted nicely about so many things - shall we get an ice cream?

What you DON'T want is for him to start screaming about monkeys!!! So make it clear YOU decide when to give them.

I tell him to say the polite thing "excuse me" but he wont then I feel like I have to make him or else I've allowed him to walk over me, as it were, without reigning it in, so I insist and he still refuses, and it turns into a huge argument that I dont think is appropriate to have with a child of his age. I mean, I will say, "DS, just say excuse me so we can go on" but he wont and then he starts hitting etc and I dont know what to do. If i stop then he has got away without saying it by hitting me and even worse behaviour. I do TO and he screams and often gets hyperventilating. There just seems no line (for DS) between allowing him his way in all things, and being cruel to him. When you attempt any kind of discipline with him he reacts so violently that it quickly gets out of hand. Its awful. Truly awful. I am really nonconfrontational with him, except for violence and manners.

I think my DH is partly to blame for this becuase he is too hard on DS, he expects too much from him, and I think its made DS nervous. I have constantly battled with DH over this and I get through to him and then he seems to forget again and expect obedience out of him that you would a 10yo. I'm always telling DH, dont rise to every bait. Dont criticise him for everything he does wrong. But he does he wants an apology for every rude word said and I think its making DS more aggressive. I cannot get DH to stop so I feel like I am trying to train both of them at the same time.

I know some parents swear by these reward/bribery systems but personally I'm not a fan because I think in most children they're not learning that good behaviour is a reward in itself and it encourages children to behave well just because they know they'll get a treat at the end. Also, it pre-supposes that a child mis-behaves out of "naughtiness" and trivialises or overlooks any underlying causes of the behaviour.

I have a 4.5yo DS and h,e and even his most quiet and gentle friends, have gone (and continue to go through) stages of some of the behaviour you've described. I think boys this age can have a lot of anger and frustration and I can imagine for some children having something removed from their jar when they are already hurting, would not help the situation.

With DS1 we make it clear hurting makes people sad and is wrong and try to help him talk about his feelings and find other outlets for his frustration. Also not letting him get too tired or hungry really helps.

If you're keen to get your monkeys out (they sound fun!) then please ignore me!

yes I am worried I will be intimidated into giving monkeys! lol how sad! I know I probably sound like a really weak Mum I dont think I actually am but I do feel stuck between a rock and a hard place a lot of the time.

HouseofMirth, I wouldnt take them away once they were given though, I think that would be too mean for a little one his age. I do know what you mean, but I've been working non-stop for over a year trying to help DS and get to the root of this problem and I'm not getting anywhere really. I don't know what's wrong with him and why he is so insecure and angry all the time. I am desperate though for a happier life for all of us.

Thing is, you can't really win against a child this age and he sounds quite stubborn. I totally identify with the feeling of thinking you need to make him be polite etc but it sounds like the forcing isn't working for either of you. One thing I've found with DS1 is I've never forced him to apologise though always made it clear that is the right thing to do. Without fail he'll always take himself away briefly from a situation, obviously have a think about things and always come back with a truly heartfelt apology. Maybe giving your DS a bit of space, so he feels like he is making a decision, rather than having orders barked at him (though I know that's not what your doing) might help him feel he has a bit of control of the situation?

Papillon, when I say 'excuse me' I mean that's what I say with this look . BUT what works best, is simply not responding or saying 'i will reply when you talk nicely, dd' in a flat voice. And only 'switching on' when she says it nicely. Ignore, ignore, ignore.

I do understand what HouseofMirth is saying, but I think your Monkeys could work as a visual reminder of the praise you are giving (for him and you). As I said, I wouldn't worry too much about when to give them or what they mean, just 'oh ds that was lovely, shall we hang another monkey!' make it a fun thing to focus on.

As for why he is so angry I don't know. you said you are seeing a Behavioural consultant. I think trying to focus on the positive side of his character would help. Could you try and find a special 'project' that ds and dh could do together, that might help them bond and have fun together? MAybe make something together?

yes you are possibly right. at least what we are doing isnt working so I have to acknowledge we are wrong with insisting he apologise. I do it because I do not want him to be rude - and trust me he is being really quite awfully rude - I love him so much its important that I dont let him down in this way. I tell him kindly, then firmly but he just won't relent. I feel like I'm just letting him do as he pleases otherwise. I don't know if I can bring myself to leave it at saying "you should apologise" and then carry on with whatever we were doing. I'm really unsure right now.

The thing is DH and DS get on really well together, and DS adores DH. But they also grate on each others nerves. And DH borders on bullying DS, I know this and in the worst moments I have even thought of leaving over it. I said as much to DH and he took himself in hand really quickly. whenever he slips back into that behaviour, if I remind him he stops and gentles himself down right away, but I've got to be on top of it all the time. I cant just tell DH once to stop expecting so much from DS and he will remember it, I have to tell him each time, each day. And that is as frustrating as having to tell DS each day not to hit me in the face!

Hmmm, I'd say 'I don't like it when you talk to me like that/hit me/etc' and then walk away. I have said to dd in the past 'no, I don't really want to play with you if you are going to hit me.' and this has elicited an apology. Rudeness gets 'don't talk to me like that' and walk away. You are then not allowing him to continue because he has no more audience. I would also say you could tell him to sit away from you but fear that would create more battles at this stage. (I have taught excluded teenagers and can tell you just walking away is effective enough )

Agree you can get into a battle over apologising when actually the issue was the hitting!!

so if he hit me, and I just said, "I dont want to play with you when you hit me" and walked away, and then he began screaming saying "I'm too sad, I cant move" and refused to move until I came and lifted him up, what would you do? I get that all the time.

I'd probably get on with something else rather than pick him up, and say 'well, I'm sad because you hit me!' and then after a bit look in the fridge or something and say 'oh look, dd I found some playdough, do you want to do some cutting... shall I see if I can find that heart cutter? ' then while dd is playing playdough happily say 'you know what dd, it's not nice to hit, is it?'

I would do a similar thing with my angry kids in the classroom tbh. 'Tyrone, I am not talking to you if you talk to me like that' move away and deal with another kid. Tyrone mutters and strops. After a bit 'Ooh Tyrone, did you want that coloured paper? I found some blue paper you can have?'.

I think sometimes they need a 'way out' iykwim.

yes that's really true, very true indeed. saving pride and giving them an out. Now can you sort my DH please?

I'm going to bed nice and early now I'm knackered. Thank you!

That's alright, thank you! (cos everything I write here I try to remember to actually do with my dd instead of just yelling 'DON'T HIT ME!!!' )

Hope you sleep well!