please help me think of a better evening routine for 3 yr old who stays up late

[tryingtoleave]

DS (3.5) started at preschool in feb. It's a bilingual school, modelled on the french system so it goes from 9 to 3 and the children have an afternoon nap. Now, we had stopped Ds's naps when he was 2 because it meant that he didn't go down to bed until really late and unfortunately this has started happening again. We can't get him to bed until around 9.30. I've spoken to the teachers about this being a problem and all they will do is wake him up 15 min earlier, which doesn't really help. So I'm trying to find a way to make the situation less hellish.

We've tried a few things and this is what we've discovered:
I take the children (also have dd, 15 months) to the park after school to try to tire them (this doesn't seem to help much).

I can't put dd to bed much before ds because he wakes her up (he is very noisy) and then she ends up being awake long after we have got him down.

I've tried giving us all a family meal together but dh isn't home until 7 and they are very very ratty and hungry by that point and don't actually eat anything and just ruin the meal for us. Really they need to be fed at 6, after which they seem to get a second wind and play happily for a bit. Then I can bath them and they play happily again after that - stretching out the evening till their bedtime. But then we are busy bathing them and putting them to bed and dh and I can't seem to find time to eat until 9.30, which is ridiculous. It also makes our bedtime very late so we are exhausted as children are still getting up at 6.

DS is used to having us sit with him until he falls asleep. This wasn't a problem in the past as he was asleep in ten minutes at 7.30. Now it is a problem and we are going to try to change it, but it is making ds sad.

So, really, I need some ideas on how to work this out better. In particular where I can fit in dinner for dh and me.

I hope this makes sense - sorry it is so long.

I am going to bed now but I would still really appreciate any thoughts. Dh and I have just had a fight about this - the late nights are putting a lot of pressure on us both.

Hey,
it sounds like your now in a routine whereby ds is now used to being up with his parents, you need to determine his bed time & stick to it! it will be really hard at first but if you just keep gently re affirming it to him after a few days you should start to notice that he will give in & go to sleep, it will be disruptive to your daughter & frustrating to yourselves as you keep putting him to bed time & time again but, hopefully he will acquiesce.

Lavender oil is also good if you use it in his bath or a few drops of essential oil on the pillow as long as he doesn't have allergies, always check before using essential oils, johnsons do a range of lavender bath time preps.

good luck I know its hard

A warm milky drink just before bedtime can make them more sleepy-it works a treat with my DS(4.5).

Second the lavender and milky drinks and determining a new bedtime and sticking to it. One other thought I had is getting him a clock so he can see when bedtime is. I think you can get special kiddy clocks for wake up time so I don't see why it wouldn't work for bedtime. You could even label bedtime in English and French.

Good luck. It's a miserable situation I know.

Sympathy - we have a similar problem. We have found though that if DD has a snack at 4 she wlll then be able to have dinner with DH and I at 6.30 and will help me cook it. If you could stretch it to 7 that at least means you get to eat...

Also, DD still has a dummy and blanket in bed (is 2.10btw) so we're trying to make sure those stay in her room as an incentive to go up there. We're generally getting her into bed for 8ish - later if DH comes home in the middle of the routine because that is very exciting. I bathe DD and DS (5.5mo) together and then DD plays quietly in her room while I get DS to bed.

In all honesty I think the problem is that he doesn't need a daytime nap. Could you collect him after lunch as the others go for their nap?

I had this problem with DD1 who just didn't need a nap at 3yo. We live in France and she had to have one at school, the only thing that solved the bedtime problem was keeping her at home in the afternoons.

If that isn't an option, your DS needs an evening routine in line with yours. So give him a snack at 4.30 or so, bath before your DH gets home, dinner with you at 7/7.30 then teeth, story, bed.

This is what most French families do. He might even start waking later...!

Hi I have read your problem and would like to offer this piece of advice. Children need to learn to fall asleep by themselves. If you are sitting with him until he sleeps he is not learning this. This means that he is relying on you for comfort.

I would suggest his last meal of the day at 5pm (latest) then take him for a walk around the block or to the park. If the weather is not good then playing inside.

At 6.30 you need to start settling him into a wind down. Turn off all stimulating items so no TV, video games or computer on.

Sit and read or talk to him about his day. Then when you feel he is calm take him for a bath, hopefully when your DH is home. Then you need a consistent routine but ensure that you and your husband take it in turns to settle him.

Get him into his nightclothes and into bed. Sit and read a couple of books of his choice, allow him to ask questions about the book. Allow him to have a drink of warm milk if this also helps.

Then explain that it is time for bed and that he must remain in his bed. On the first night you sit on the floor by his bed but you have no interaction with him, no matter how hard he tries! Face away from his bed with no eye contact. If he tries to talk or get out of bed you must repeat that it is bed time.

Each night you position yourself further from the bed and nearer to the door. You may then need to sit in the doorway and then just outside his door. Eventually he will learn to go to sleep by himself.

Consistency is the only way you will teach him that he has a new sleep routine and eventually he will learn that he is not staying up with you until 9.30.

This may also be his way of spending time with you on his own as he is aware that you are spending time with his sibling alone while he is at school. It is worth making time for him to have one to one time with you and/or your husband at the weekends. his could be a treat for going to bed at the right time.

The nap is obviously the problem. Can you pick him up after the school day ends but before the naptime begins?

Thank you everyone.

I understand about setting him a bedtime and him going to bed on his own but it seems completely unfair to send him to bed at 7.30 if he is not tired and won't go to sleep at 9.30. It's not just ds being difficult (and he can certainly be difficult - in fact I should add that he is totally hyperactive) but he hasn't been able to get to sleep at this time after a nap since he was 18 months old. He goes to bed easily if he hasn't napped and often will fall asleep on his own while I deal with dd if he is really tired. So he can go to sleep on his own - as his napping at school proves!

We have offered him treats in exchange for going to bed on his own - he says he would rather have us. I do try to take him out on his own on the weekend.

DS is a bit lactose intolerant - I wonder if warm rice milk would have any effect? I had actually just instituted a no drink except water after dinner rule because he was drinking so much rice milk before bed.

I have considered picking him up at midday but unfortunately that is when dd naps and as it is a 15 min drive she will fall asleep on the way there, which will cause a whole new set of problems.

I think I will follow the advice to try to give them a bigger afternoon snack(I already arrive at the school with crackers and fruit because ds is starving) and see if that will keep them going so that they can at least sit down with us at dinner. I just feel like I'm constantly preparing meals though....

I don't mean to be difficult or rude about the advice- just no easy solutions I guess.

Am in the same boat as you. I live in Portugal and the routine here is much the same, ie very late bedtimes! My dd, 2.9, is at preschool everyday from 9 till 4 and they have a 2 hour nap after lunch. She too had stopped sleeping during the day and had been going to bed very easily at 7. Once she started school that all changed and she is now in bed at 9. It is tough as it meems later dinner and bed for us parents but I am actually enjoying the evenings with her. I guess cause the weather is better here we have a very active outdoor lifestyle and we are often in the park till 6. We then have dinner at 6.30, after which dd is allowed 1 hour of tv. This always calms her down and at 7.45 ish she is in the bath, then stories and milk and in bed at 8.30. She also likes me to stay in the room with her which I do for a few minutes. After that I tell her that I need to go make Daddy supper and leave her with a story tape. Over the few months since she started school she has learnt to go to bed better on her own and does now sleep straight through to 7.30 or 8. I tried to get over the late dinner times for us by making dinner during the day, or when she is having her tv hour so that we can eat at 9. It does make a difference as at the mo dd is an only child. dc2 is due in June and it may all change again then!!
Maybe if you get your ds to stay in his bed on his own it'll get better. Some nights my dd really fights me when I want to leave the rooma and I just have to be firm. Latest trick is if she really starts playing up I take away her dummy. I leave her to scream a few mins and then give it back, saying that is she makes another peep I'll take it way again. works a charm!!
Good luck and remember is almost summer so you'll be able to keep them otdoors longer in the afternoon and he can burn off more energy!

Lifeinthesun, I'm in Australia so we're heading towards winter and I'm afraid it will get worse as it will probably be too cold to go to the park after school. It's lovely at the moment and I stay in the park as long as possible but the other parents tend to leave after half an hour and ds isn't really interested in staying there on his own.

If the children would sleep until 8 I wouldn't mind eating at nine but at least one still gets up before 7 most days. I am very hopeful they will sleep later but no sign fo it yet. How long did it take your dd to sleep in longer?

hi tryingtoleave,
We also live in Australia, I find that a consistent routine works. DS is 3, DD is 7. DS sleeps 12-2or3 during the day (as long as I'm consistent putting him down!.

5pm shower, baths.
6pm kids dinner,teeth.
7pm kids in bed, stories,reading, bottle of warm milk.

upside- kids routinely asleep by 7.30-8.
downside- family together but not eating together every night, working on that. Milk not recommended overnight due to dental issues although both my kids had bedtime bottles and have no teeth issues.

It has been much harder to implement over the summer with the heat and daylight til 8pm but should be easier now heading into winter.
I know each family circumstance is different so best of luck.

I think the best solution would be to pick him up at lunchtime and to somehow work around DDs nap, she is probably the more flexible of the two?

Would she go to sleep in cot if you transferred her from the car when you got home? Also, if she follows your DS's pattern she may not need a nap in a few months anyway - you did say he gave his nap up at 18 months didn't you?

I've read everyone's advice and think Castille's is a good idea, probably the best tbh.

My DD used to be tricky about settling if she had a long nap in the day. But by being very boring and consistent and not getting her up or allowing her to stay up very late. She has learnt to lie in the dark and sing or chatter to herself until she finally falls asleep without being a problem. Nowadays she falls asleep much easier and sooner. And her brother who shares a room with her seems to sleep through it, as he's tired, he's 14 months.

Hyperactivity can be caused in overtired children by a stress hormone being released, I've read. Although if he is napping in the day then I guess he's not overtired

How long until they stop doing the nap at school? Is there light at the end of the tunnel?

Ibangthedrums - she will transfer if she falls asleep on the way home, but I think she would fall asleep on the way to school. I can't leave her in the car as it can take a long time to get ds out and by the time we went back home she would be properly awake and probably not get a proper nap at all.

I think they will be napping for the next two years. I'm hoping that once ds adjusts to school he might stop napping as he really doesn't seem to need all that much sleep. If he doesn't I will probably start to pick him up at midday once dd can stay awake for longer in the morning. I mentioned he was hyper to try to explain that it isn't easy to get him to lie down. He tends to be bouncing off the walls from the moment he gets up in the morning. He is a very difficult, stubborn and demanding child and while I suppose it might be possible to get him to lie in his room for a couple of hours I think it would be an extremely painful process for everyone. And I don't want to do it to him just when he is adjusting to full time school. I really just want ideas on how to cope better with a long evening with dcs around. Thank you, Castille, for your description of how things work in France - that was helpful. And I do appreciate all the other comments - I'm just not sure they will work for ds.

TBH if it were me I'd find a new school. 3.5year olds don't usually need an afternoon nap!

AT that age children tend to not need a nap, why on earth are they giving naps to pre schoolers when they should be dropping the naps. My dd is just 3 i am so glad she dropped the nap herself as she was dreadful, she would have a 2 hour nap (no shorter) and be full of beans till about 10-11 o'clock and bedtime used to be a nightmare. Now she has dropped them its so good, she goes to sleep at about 8 o'clock and tends to sleep the night. Children that age dont tend to need them imo.

Maabey you could pick your ds up earlier just before they are put down for a nap, or if you are not allowed find another pre school as it might not be the right one for you and your ds needs.

tryingtoleave my dd started sleeping in better after about 2 months of having the long nap at school. she is also going to bed a bit better and earlier than in the initial few weeks. I try my hardest to get her in bed no later than 8.30 so that she is asleep by 9 and have really also worked hard at not giving in and staying in the room stroking her back the way she likes. Would the school not put him down for a nap if you asked? hard for you if now going into winter. good luck!