How do you know whether your toddlers tantrums/general behaviour are beyond the norm?

[pamelat]

I really don't want to come over as overly anxious, but to give some context.

Am 31 weeks pregnant. DD is 26 months old.

DD is beautiful, vocal, clever, funny, high spirited, energetic but also highly strung, stroppy, bossy, demanding, whining and sometimes it would seem, "aggressive" for want of a better word.

She was a difficult baby, never really slept, just wanted to feed all the time etc, cried a lot. She was diagnosed with silent reflux but to be honest I think that they just did that as they couldnt explain her upset. The medication never helped her so its no really 'proven' as such.

Anyway, at 6 months and with the introduction of food, she was much happier.

From about 18 months she has suffered with tantrums, these vary from full blown out of control to just throwing of self on floor etc. She is yet to do the turning blue tantrum, thank goodness.

Her vocabulary is very good for her age now, and initially that seemed to help from around 22 months.

However ..... she now constantly demands things, be it chocolate, blueberries, mummy, daddy, pick up, go away etc etc. She whines and crys a lot and acts generally spoilt. Although she has been an only child (not for much longer) I dont feel we have spoilt her.

I may have been guilty of interacting too much with her, if that is possible? She is unable to play alone and very demanding of my attention. The thing is I havent minded this too much, its now just the stroppiness/crying/whining that is driving me crazy.

She is getting enough sleep, 11 hours ish at night and between 0 - 2 hours a day at lunch (up to her, but always quiet time in her cot if not asleep)

She goes to nursery 3 days a week and they say she is funny, high spirited and "in charge" I think they let her get away with a lot but she has only been there 3 months. She had been at her old (smaller) nursery for 9 months and they said similar about her. Apparently she does not whine too much at nursery though, so it seems to only be me, DH and close family that cause the whining?

I find it embarassing that she is so assertive. We cant get to a play area without her telling other children, especially older boys, that its "NOT YOUR TURN" or "NOT YOUR SLIDE", "NOT YOUR MUMMY" etc or commanding them to do as she says "you sit here" etc. The odd thing is is that they most often do!!

Anyway, am going off at a tangent.

I can cope with the assertiveness and sometimes I think its better than the opposite (which I was as a child). What I am struggling to cope with is the whining and general strops? Any tips before DS arrives and the lack of sleep tips me over the edge?!

You don't cause the whining, you're just so important that she thinks you can do anything for her (unlike the rest of the world whom she isn't so persistent with).

How much do you go out to toddler groups and the like? You might get some breathing space there.

She sounds pretty normal to me, btw . Normal = Not easy, btw!!

I tend to try to indulge them, toddlers like to be in control and they all have their little routines of how to do stuff. Just try to roll with most of it because this stage doesn't last forever, and you need to save your energy for battles that really matter (like not running in the road, feeding little brother marbles, etc.)

Thank you llyjkk.

It certainly feels like we do cause the whining but I do genuinely plan most of my day around her (maybe you shouldn't?!)

I work part time. On my days "off with her we tend to meet friends or go to the toddler group in the morning and then potter/make cakes/or go for a walk in the afternoon.

She just wants to be in charge constantly. If making cakes it inevitably leads to a tantrum as (despite always calming explaining and sticking to it) she will want to do the bits that she just can't, ie) removing hot cake from the oven. I do let her do a lot for herself, more than other people seem to but its still not enough for her.

Feels like constant battle at the moment. She has even been saying "not your baby mummy, MY BABY BROTHER" and thats before he is here!!

Perfectly normal. Sounds very much like my DS1. He started with almost identical behaviour to your DD, and like your DD, he isn't spoilt. He's 3 next month and still tantruming away! Worse if anything.

Still, as my Mum never fails to remind me, I was a very highly strung child. I used to have breath holding fits, pass out and wet myself. Mum says she got used to it!

She sounds very similar to how my dd1 was at that age. Really really demanding, good language skills, very full-on, bossy, unable to play alone, easily bored, hated waiting etc.

You have my sympathy, it's exhausting. I used to watch my friends' dcs sit and play quietly with one toy for ages and wonder what I was doing wrong. The only way I could get anything done was to stick her in front of the tv for a bit - luckily she would sit for 20 mins or so from a young age, possibly because her language skills were quite advanced and she could follow simple stories. The rest of the time she wanted me to play, and if I didn't she would follow me around chattering and whining.

I had my ds when dd was just under 2 and tbh it was ok when he was really little - dd was still the only one talking to me and I could still play, just with ds on my lap feeding or in his bouncy chair. I think it was harder when they were 3 and 1, but by then dd was going to nursery and ds got some time alone with me. You will manage fine, it just takes some getting used to.

As your dd gets older she will keep her personality but it will get so much easier for you as she can do more and more alone. My dd is a bright 9 yr old now who still wants to be busy and structured but will also sit for ages with her nose in a book.

With the bossy assertive thing, I think you take these things harder with the first child. I was the same, I wanted dd1 to behave properly! With my dd2 who is now 4 I'm not nearly so bothered what people think and tend to think a lot of that stuff is quite funny.

Sounds normal. I only need to be talking to another baby on the bus and my DD yells "NOT YOUR MUMMY! MY MUMMY!" loudly.

Your DD will no doubt be feeling a bit concerned about number 2 edging her out, and so is marking her place now. As Leningrad says, don't underestimate the impact of a new baby.

Just on a slight tangent, is she toilet trained? My DD is ever so much happier now she is out of nappies. I think she was just keen to be more grown up and more in control of things, and this was one way. She also always chooses her clothes - even though this means her looking like a total jumble sale most of the time.

Does it make a difference what you are up to in the day? My DD is noticably happier the more we do in the day. Seeing friends and pottering just doesn't do it for her. She needs playgroup/ swimming/ music/ zoo/ running around/ painting/ museum/ splashing. The more we do the happier she is, definitely.

On the whining thing, does it work? I mean, do you say no and then cave in if she whines?

myy dd (now 2.6) sounds identical, it's exhausting isn't it?!

I haven't cracked the assertiveness, and tbh I'm not sure I want to - assertiveness gets yo far in later life doesn't it?!

The whinging however I have cracked. I repeatedly tell dd that I cannot hear whinging, and she either gets the "look", ignored or told off for whinging, depending on my mood. She will now stop whinging and say "PLEASE MAY i HAVE XXX" in a very cute voice instead of whinging.

Good lck with the birth of your baby, you're far braver han me

thanks all, only just logged back on.

We have actually had an ok day today. We went swimming to a new pool with lots of slides/wave machine and I think because it was a lot of new things, all at once, she actually decided to be "nice" to me . She enjoyed it don't get me wrong, I don't want to come over as cruel but for the first time in a long time I think she felt she ought to stick by me! No running off, thank goodness. No shouting at us or aggression either. Just a nice morning out.

This afternoon we had mothers day lunch out with 13 of us, all family and extended family. I had been dreading it, fairly posh place really, not my choice at all for taking a toddler and DD was the only child in the whole place. I was terrified. Anyway, whilst not relaxing and whilst DD could not be expected to just sit still for the whole time (2.5 hours in the end!!), a new sticker book, lots of attention and food just about held it together. She sang very loudly but thats cute, its just the tantrums that I was dreading and they didnt come .

However, I can't plan a new activity for every single day. So yes domestic maybe she is better if we do something new, or something very energetic.

I cant really take her swimming by myself whilst pregnant as when I was about 20 weeks I fainted beside the pool with her. I have low blood pressure when pregnant and think the heat of the pool area, or just the running around makes it worse. I only really feel comfortable taking her with others there now. In fact she reminds me of that "you not swimming mummy you have baby brother in your tummy". bless her.

She did insist on saying "NOT MUMMYS DAY, MY DAY" every 15 mins but this was a small price to pay.

It was odd though as I think she was angelic today, whilst others sat near to us found it quite hard work. My MIL said "its constant isn't it" (I think she meant the chatting/paying attention etc) Thank goodness she was not being difficult

Yes maybe I do worry too much and DD may pick up on this?

Its easy after a good day, but I know there will be lots more bad days to come.

Lenin thank you, yes, I think I find myself talking for the benefit of others. "play nicely, share, be kind" etc etc.

mooncup, I was apparently a very shy child, never really caused any bother and then developed in to a highly strung nightmare teenager, so am telling myself that DD may become an angel as a teen?!

cobweb yes DD sounds exactly like how your DD was. I sit and compare (I know you shouldnt!) and think what on earth have I caused. I know my friends pity me a little as its always my DD that is being a madam, but they say she is funny and clever

beeson not brave, stupid!! I really really try not to cave in to whining. Have made a big point about not doing recently as otherwise fear that I will have this whining behaviour for life. However, its easier in the house than out. . In fact sometimes I find that I am letting her have her way (within reason) when we are out, so as to pre-empt whining. I am not sure if this spoiling or sensible. For example, I would not leave the house without juice and snacks. Am not sure I would dare ! Although she seems to be learning the concept of "after" and "later" which is useful.

Glad you had a better day today - my DS sounds quite similar to the way your DD is now when he was the same age. My DD is now just over a year and DD is 3 years 8 months so 2.5 years age gap which I think is about what yours is/

Sounds like you are doing a good job. When your second DC comes along things may well be tricky for a while. My DS can be quite sensitive too and I found that first few months quite tricky as I felt very torn between new baby and DS as most people I think do. DS could be difficult at times but luckily DD was an easy baby and looking back now I can't remember much about her first few months other than the fact she was always happily sitting in her bouncy chair!! I used as much time as I could to read stories with DS - like your DD he has always found it hard to play on his own. I work part time too and he goes to a nursery 2 days a week so is used to other kids but when I'm there he just wanted me. I would just do a few things so he didn't feel pushed out and at the weekends would make sure that DH took DD and go and do somethign with DS on our own. We had difficult days. Now though at 14 months, DD is being quite tricky - she' teething about to walk etc etc and is clinging like velcro.

I just realised today in the midst of DD being difficulty that DS's behaviour has really turned a corner and he's actually been really sweet, less stroppy and just generally will do what he's told and has calmed down a lot. He's also now going to pre-school a couple of mornings when I'm off work. I am quite strict about the fact that I have stuff to do when we're at home - usualy boring chores and he'll go off and play. I also keep drawing things on the table and he's more interested in his letters/colouring in etc now - i think it's an age thing so he's happier to occupy himself a bit more on his own. He'll also amuse his sister a bit too or help her with things she's playing with.

Another year will make a big difference...sorry I haven't focussed on the other things so much and this is a general burble but hope this helps a bit !

oh gosh I NEVER leave the house without juice or snacks. I do a LOT of bribery, but I call it "negotiation" rather than bribery. If I am totally honest we had the day from HELL last weekend, where dd spent the whole day tantrumming or whining. I lost it BIG STYLE . She spent most of her day sitting outside of rooms (she has to sit alone away from us when she is naughty) and yelling, really yelling at her. I do shout, but rarely lose the plot like I did last week. At bed time I apologised for shouting, but reminded her it was her behaviour which made me angry, and that she must do as she is told, not throw, hit, stand on dog etc, and ask for things nicely.

I then went downstairs and cried at the damage I had caused my lovely little girl.

The next morning she woke up, came in with me and said "i'm not going to be naughty today mumma, I'm going to be nice girl" and proceeded to be In fact, this niceness has lasted over a week

At low times I do hope I haven't scarred her for life, and made her worried about kicking off in front of me, but most of the time I just enjoy it.

your dd sounds like my two, and i've done a lot of beating myself up about whether their behaviour has been my fault. however, ds1 has shown me that it does end and is worth it. ds1 required CONSTANT attention, had to be talked to or played with non stop, had the hugest tantrums at the slightest provocation. i was scared to go out a lot of the time as any event, toddler group, family day out, whatever, would end in tantrum misery. i used to envy other people whose kids would sit nicely and quietly and let adult conversation flow over them or play with stuff on their own.

but now ds1 is six and he's lovely (most of the time!). polite, capable of listening while adults talk, doesn't tantrum. he is very well liked by his teachers. so... it will end! i'm having to remind myself of this with ds2 who is about to turn three and is a NIGHTMARE at the moment. i'm also struggling with the disapproval of my family who think i'm getting it wrong somehow.

with ds2 i'm working harder to make sure he asks for what he wants in a nice voice (not a whiny voice or tantrum). he struggles with no, if i say no to anything he wants he goes mental, so i'm trying to choose my battles - pick some times when i persist on saying 'no', then let him have the tantrum but ignore it (cuddle at end when he's ready). and if i can't face the battle i just make sure he asks for the thing he wants in a nice voice before i give it (even if i said no initially).

my last tip would be try not to fear the tantrum - the fear of it will make you pander so much more to the constant attention need. try to think so what if my child goes mad?! that's what toddlers do! i read somewhere on here that a strong willed child needs strong parenting - blooming hard (especially if like me you're not a 'strong' personality). good luck.

Glad you had a good day pamelat. You sound like you're doing really well with an intelligent, demanding child!

I got big deja vu reading your second post - she sounds so like my dd! It's very hard. I think I was a bit on edge around my dd1, always waiting for her to do something etc. I am so much more relaxed with my dd2 (not so much with my ds, but he's another thread...), and she is quite easy-going and good at entertaining herself, but who know whether that's just the way she is or because I'm more relaxed...probably bit of both. I do believe there's something in "letting them be bored" - if you expect her to play on her own more she might get used to the idea. I think you get more confidence to do that in time.

My dd1 found it hard to come up with ideas on her own (still does actually) so I found if I set up dolls or whatever and started talking about what they wer doing, I could sometimes withdraw once she got into doing it on her own. Only sometimes however - she would more likely start an argument with me..."No she's not going to the shops, she's going to the PARK!!!" etc etc.

Does your dd like to always know what's going to happen? I found that made a huge difference with my dd1. She seemed to need the security of the structure. Obviously life's not always like that and she can be more flexible now she's older. She still wants to know what's happening, but can cope with change (She tells me "It's good to be flexible isn't it Mummy?" - not coached at all?!)

My dd1 stopped being so bossy once she got to school (after a few initial teething problems!) - she was clever enough to realise quickly that if you boss people around they don't want to play with you. They learn to control these impulses in time!

Sounds just like my ds who is 2.6, not so much whinging and crying now but he was terrible for it until about 2 months ago. He's 2.7 now and is so bossy abnd demanding! It is quite embarrassing when people are here and they see quite how much he gets away with but I always pick my bnattles. Unless he or someone else are in danger I end to just go with it. It's a phase and all that. Really tough though and I have often wonderend if they are all like it cos it's easy rto think you are the only one going through it!

sounds exactly like ds1 who is now 3.9 - and he got much worse just before ds2 arrived - do you have her stroke the baby (your bump), talk to her about things you are doing for the baby etc, ask her what she might do with the baby, tell her what a big girl she is and how her little sibling is going to have to learn everything from her (in a good way) - we found that all helped. Also picking out a present she can give the baby, and making sure there is a gift from the baby to her as well.

The tantrums sounds pretty normal and it's just a case of getting through them unfortunately - they do get better, you'll go from tantrums to "WHY"... very quickly!

Hang on in there, sounds like you're doing fine.