Had a really difficult day with 3.8yo DD. Advice and support gratefully recieved

[PavlovtheCat]

DD aged 3.8 has been extremely difficult in her behaviour all day today. Since i woke up after a horrendous night with DS aged 14 weeks. Before that according to DH she was fine.

She is not responding to pretty much anything we say, at least not for the first 4-5 times, if at all. She is doing dangerous things that she would never normally do, she is being deliberately pushy and her facial expressions are watchful and defiant, ie as she is doing something she has been asked not to do she will watch as she does it.

Her behaviour has resulted in being shouted at quite a lot by DH, not out of choice but out of feeling pushed too far, and I have shouted a couple of times, but not as much as I have felt like doing. I really do not want to be a shouty parent. But today, right now I want to scream at her JUST STOP IT FGS'. A few examples of things she has done/said/behaved like.

Ran across the road because she wanted to walk with me and I was already walking across the road with DS in his carseat. DH had already asked her to hold his hand, and once I was halfway across, while DH bent down to pick up DS she pulled away and ran, cue shouting from DH, and many tears.

She keeps trying to pick DS up, he was on the bed, so was I, she tried to pick him up and onto her, I told her to leave him alone and she just ignored and ignored and ignored and carried on. I tried to reason 'if i ask you again to not pick him up, i will ask you to leave the room' so she immediately does it again.

Refuses to do anything DH says, and yells at him if he tries, won't let him put her in the car seat, won't let him give her a drink, all has to be me.

We went out for a walk, she refuses to sit in her seat for me.

Refuses to sit and eat her food, gets down from the table (cafe outside) and gets on her bike, i ask her to sit at the table, she refuses and goes off on her bike, laughing. I have to go and get her, ask her to get off, she refuses and I have to take her off. She then throws herself on the floor and shouts that I have pushed her (which I ignore and take her to the table)

She would not leave my friend's 6 month old baby alone, she kept trying to cuddle her even though i kept asking for her not to.

She keeps blowing raspberries when asked to do something.

She runs away when asked to do something.

She has thrown paper and felt around the bedroom.
She has been screaming and yelling in the car to get heard to the point that I pulled over and had to get her to stop yelling before i continued to drive.

She has been quick to tears, upset by everything, not wanting to nap, not wanting to eat, not being able to go to a park even though we went on a lovely walk.

She has tried to shut the laptop lid on my hands, she has hurredly smacked on the keyboard going over work i was going, to get my attention.

She has just sat here, with her feet on DSs head, while I feed him and when I ask her to stop she stopped then did it again, then stopped then did it again, then kept pretending to kick me, then tried to push the laptop on the floor.

She is jumping all over me, not bothering about whether she kicks me, or DS, and will not stop when I ask.

She is fussing and jumping and being extremely hyperactive, falling over and hurting herself, swinging things around, laughing manicly.

DH and I have spent what seems like every moment saying 'no dd, don't do that, NO, come back, stop it, i said stop it, please don't do that, please don't do that, do as you are told, listen. NOW!

I am worn out. I have no idea what is going on. She slept quite well, woke at a reasonable ish time (6:45am) she wil normally nap when tired, if in the car but not today. Her eyes are dark, she looks exhausted. I have thought for a couple of days she might be coming down with something. but nothing has happened and DH is not convinced she is.

Help? Or at least a virtual glass of vino

Oh and just to add, we have tried all the things that normally work fine, reason, cajolling, persuading, demanding, ultimatums, time out. It has all ended in fights.

('...while dh bent down to pick up ds' bag') that should have read.

Not much advice or support really, sounds like you had a tough day, sure someone will be along soon with something helpful to say..

,,meanwhile I have a corkscrew

My first thought on reading your post is that it sounds like she is desperate for your attention.

I don't know if she's often like this, or more so since your new baby has arrived? Or perhaps there's a reason for her particularly needing your attention today, such as her being a little under the weather, as you suggested.

And she's certainly getting your attention, albeit in a negative way because, as you say you are constantly having to tell her off!

Have you tried giving her your undivided attention for a set period of time, so that she gets her own special time with you? Difficult I know with a 14 week old .

I sympathise as my 4 year old is also pretty hard work at the moment! Roll on September I say .

My first thought on reading your OP is that you're saying

DON'T do...

STOP doing...

NO...

pretty much all the time. I find it is very easy to slip into this way of communicating, once you start it, IYKWIM SO then EVERYTHING becomes a battle, everything

She is a tricky age (IME) - both dds I have found 3 to be the hardest age. You also have a new baby and for her, the novelty is boundto have worn off, but she is still getting used to him

Try and ignore as much as you can. She will get bored of blowing raspberries if you completely dismiss it, for example

Try and do 1, 2, 3 with her

Try and use distraction (like when she's hassling ds - and I really know how wearing this is, dd2 had dd1 in her face from the moment she was born )

Have a large glass of wine

She is doing everything in her power to get your attention. It is frightful when they are like that. I have felt so angry with my dd when she behaved like that that it was dfficult to see things from her point of view. But all you CAN do is think what it is like to be her in this situation, what would make you feel secure and calm if you were 3.8yrs.
In our case we tried to give positive attention before the tantrums struck, so we weren't always in a defensive position. We sometimes just were a bit flexible (ie: wear silly clothes if you want, don't put your coat on if you don't feel like it, and yes you can eat that biscuit now (ie: picking our battles) when she was being dreadful, we let bygones be bygones, we didn't refer to her previous behaviour when she had said sorry, we tried to ignore her when she was being unbearable, or just put her out of the room immediately without getting visibly enraged. Also, lots and lots of cuddles and snuggles, babying the three year old, carrying her not telling her to walk etc.

I have to say I only worked this strategy out when she was about five I wish I had been more observant before, I would saved all of us a lot of heartache.

Aww Pav, this is how my ds is acting as well. its fustrating, I wish I had something I can add that would help but am having the same problems. (mine has even ripped off the plaster off of one side of his bedroom when he was 'napping'. we weren't best pleased when we caught him.) hope things improve for you soon x

Pavlov, I think I have the male version of your daughter, except he's just turned 4. My ds is always very naughty spirited. I noticed when he was 18 months and ds2 was born his behaviour became deliberatly naughty, uncontrolled and challenging.

Have to say I'm noticing it again now that ds3 has arrived (18 weeks).

Things that are working quite well are star charts. Tried them before but was always quite punitive.
This time I have chosen simple tasks that he can complete rather than "be a good boy" type ones. Reminds me to praise him in day for putting own clothes on, putting crayons back in box etc. He seems to enjoy the praise and fuss of going to star chart to be rewarded (quite likes it that he is succeeding at staying in bed til 7 wheras the baby isn't, fortunatley haven't started a chart for baby...yet)

Remember....

This too shall pass (how I tire of the mantra sometimes )

Forgot to say that I am curently drinking de-alcoholised wine in the home I might fool myself. So have a (faux) glass from me!

All in the one day Pav?? you must be at your wits end!

It's strange that her behaviour has changed so drastically all of a sudden. I know you do make time to spend with her and plan lovely activities to do with her too. Agree with others that it does sound like relentless attention seeking.

It could be that she has realised ds is here for good and she may be rebelling slightly to that Does she spend much quality time with dh? You may need to just do an overload of praise for every tiny thing she does from the offset tomorrow and over the next couple of days so she doesn't get the chance to fall into a 'bad mood'.

Does she get any treats that you could use a leverage? A tv program that she normally watches or something she looks forward to doing? Maybe start up a sticker chart for good behaviour? All just ideas. I hope you don't have to use any of them and that today was just a one off. Fingers crossed for you! [big hugs]

Thanks all. notnowbernard yes we are saying No more and more often. But its mixed with our normal calm and gentle nature with her. We are usually so chilled and relaxed and quite 'liberal' i guess with her. We have been adding the Nos and the Don't do's in with the mix out of sheer desperation i guess.

westender yes she has been more like this since DS was born, which we expected and tried hard to prepare for. But she has not been like it much. She is completely and utterly besotted with DS, she told him today he is the best boy ever, and also when she grows up she will protect him from the wild animals [aww]. And when she has been like it, it has not been for the entire day. Although we went through a period a bit like this a month or so ago, for a whole week (but not all day) and by the end of it, she had a nasty cough, which i then got and felt terrible for days before getting the cough, so we thought it was probably that.

Spending time with her - i try to do at least one thing per day with her that is just me and her, even if it is reading a story. Sometimes we do bigger things, like painting, making a collage, and if i am nipping to the shops for something i will leave DS with DH and take her with me, she likes to 'help' me. If I cannot leave DS for complete 1:1 time, i get her to sit with me while i feed him, and will read her a story, or watch a dvd with her and talk about it with her, or show her photos or pictures on the computer (she loves to google animal photos).

I guess, today was the most full on she has been. Normally when she displays behaviour close to this, she is very tired, or hungry. And today the behaviour was the worst of her tired and hunger behaviour and ALL day.

We do try distraction, and it does work, as does talking clearly and slowly and with an ultimatum. Some of the time. For example at bed time she refused to go for a wee, continue to play with her toys. I asked once, calmly, then twice calmly and said if i asked one more time she would not have a bed time story. So she got up and went to the toilet, then came to bed. But, there have been so so many things today that distraction would not be possible, iy has just come at us thick and fast, bang bang bang bang, one thing after another. And when it comes to running into the road, it is something we cannot let go without a word or two.

trikken we shall hold hands together through this yeah?

I am just so at how out of the blue, how extreme and how intense it was today.

I will try to give her more time of my own, and DH and I will try really hard to ignore where we can. And repeat that mantra ladygoogoo!

Thank you for helping put some perspective on it, it is hard to see it clearly when in the mix of it all.

"DD aged 3.8 has been extremely difficult in her behaviour all day today. Since i woke up after a horrendous night with DS aged 14 weeks."

I think your reason is there in black and white "DS aged 14 weeks".

you need to get your DD on board and be part of the team - get her to help you and to make suggestions as to how you and she and DH can care for your littelist baby, and for each other.
Ignore the bad behaviour and be compassionate.

You'll need to give her alone, one on one time, and to reinforce that you still love her and that she's still relavent in your life.

The poor little thing is grieving over her de-thronement.

Best of luck to you all in this difficult ajustment period, and congratulations!

In that case then - I think you should just write today off as 'one of Those Days'

She's 3.8, that's what they do I suppose... act up now and then

And don't underestimate the ds thing. DD1 adored dd2 from the moment she was born, but her behaviour changed a lot for the first 2-3m

Pav I had the worst day yesterday with DS1 who is 4. I can really sympathise and I feel your pain. I don't have any tips to share that haven't been mentioned already. You seem to be doing a great job and try not to be hard on yourself. You're not alone . My DS is the best kid when he's good, but when he's naughty, my word, he goes for it in a big way! I realise he's taken a knock from DS2 arriving, but he's also going through a growth spurt as he's eating loads and he's very tired most days. So it's a combination of things for us. I was in bed very early last night to recover from my bad day. Today was a better

tok yes all in one day . She spends lots of time with DH and has done since I was poorly during pg, for the most part this has set a good routine for the future as she is used to lots of DH time.

I read some of the posts to DH a moment ago. And he pointed out something from the post by westender about undivided attention. He reminded me that on Monday and tuesday this week she was at nursery. On monday he both took her and picked her up as I was out in bristol (mn meetup ) where i usually pick her up. he fed her and put her to bed. Yesterday, after nursery, which i collected her from, she behaved quite outrageously, which we did not think about so much today as that is normal for her after nursery and we can handle that fine. But we had guests and DH put her to bed again as I was talking to my friend about her fertility stuff and i gave DD fairy kisses which I do every night. But I gave her hardly any of my time at all, not my own 1:1 undivided attention, so that is 2 whole days. And then this morning, i stayed in bed til 9am as I had no sleep til 5:30am as DS has a cough.

So, that would really explain a lot today, there was a specific thing happening today. She missed her mama and now i feel awful.

BUT i did put her to bed tonight, and read her several stories and she told me I was the best mama in the whole world and she has not got up. So that is a positive.

If it does carry on, I'd say it's probably her realising she's got to share you now for ever. Have a word with HV to see if they have a book on new baby/toddler situations. Mine reccommended Toddler Taming, if that's any help.

My DS1 was a horror from the moment he saw DS2 and he really tried to hurt him (rugby ball smashed in DS2 face whilst I BF and photo frames- minus the glass thak God! - smashed over his head!)

I had to resort to putting DS2 into a playpen every time I left the room, until he could fight back!

Hopefully your dd not take too long to realise that you and DH can still love and have time for her and DS. It is hard to find time for each child and I admit, I hardly ever got to do it with mine, unless DS2 was asleep, he cried to be held all the time until about 4 months old!

The one thing DD does not lack though, no matter what is love. We make a point of telling her as often as we possibly can that we love her, and we cuddle her, and praise her as much as we can, we tend to go overboard to make sure she knows. I will for example call her to me saying 'i have something really important to tell you' and when she gets to me, i squeeze her and say 'i love you very much' and when we read stories about beautiful princesses i say things like 'she is just like you are'.

I think, yes, today was an exceptionally bad day and I am hoping hoping hoping it was a one off. I can cope with some of the behaviour I saw today, some of the time. But not all at once.

zazen yes, you are right, it is because of DS. Not him, but her position is compromised. We do try hard to make sure she knows she is still important to us, she is our most important girl. And we tell her how special she is. But today, I did not get up to have breakfast with her, which I try to do. I try to keep my promises to her, even if they are small and I told her when she got up, that I would be up soon, and I wasn't. DH said she was fine until i got up, so it is clearly me. I can see that now, from writing it all down, talking with DH and reading your posts.

fruit i am so sorry you are going through it too. It is so hard for them isn't it? I do put myself in her shoes, i try to think about how she is feeling, and it does upset me, as I can't comprehend how difficult is must be when mama says 'not now in a minute' when before she would be saying 'come on DD lets go do it!'. I try really hard to think about how she is feeling, and I get myself upset when i think she could be unhappy, even for one day. DD is like your DS, she is a fantastically well behaved child. But she is very active, and on the go and wanting active things, so when she is being negative, she is still active and hectic and in your face, but negatively not positively and its so tiring.

DS is due to sleep any time soon, so when he does I will retire, but not before an HUGE glass of pink port, yes indeed, pink port! DH just bought it for me, sweet that he is!

Tomorrow, I am going to do something special with DD. Just us two.

akangeroo i have Toddler Taming actually, but the sibling bit in it is short and not very informative. I found the sleep section quite good though.

I think she must be realising the reality of it with DS, but does not realise it herself, luckily, she adores him. She wants to do everything for him, with him, and around him, she loves to make him laugh and this evening when we read stories together he was tucked in beside her, at her insistence and he kept grabbing her hair and she was in absolute fits of giggles, you know those true deep belly giggles that make them almost stop breathing? She was doing that. ( i try to alternate the bedtimes, sometimes he comes up for stories with us both, sometimes we do it together just us two).

Its so bloody hard isn't it? I spent lots of time with DH, thinking, talking about how we will do things, being careful to parent responsibly while following our instincts, to try to make the right choices, we consider things carefully, but its not a simple right or wrong way is it?

Pav Indeed my DS is also very active. He gets me in a muddle at times because he is almost on top of me wanting my attention. I do put myself in his shoes and think how hard it is for him. I remind myself lots that he's a good natured child with lots of love to give and wonderful with DS2. That's what gets me through the darker moments when he's being a nightmare!! When he is told off or sent to his room, we always finish things on a good note and have lots of cuddles. I think our lack of sleep doesn't help our frame of mind either. The glass of port and an early night sounds like a good plan

Before long.. We will be telling both DC to stop fighting with each other!!

Pavlov your daughter is clearly having the most lovely childhood Yes it was a bad day and yes at this age and with a new sibling she will have some incredibly and maddeningly awful times; but I think maybe you are putting too much pressure on yourself; even if you and your DH always did everything 100% perfectly and right, your DD would STILL have these episodes because she is tiny and she has huge emotions and she is not governed by logic!

And you've already recognised that lack of mum time over the last couple of days has contributed. Many people would not have been able to be so thoughtful and pick that out from her point of view. I'm sure you will navigate these 'humps' along the way just fine, I would say you are doing brilliantly

pixie i guess that is possible. She does look exhausted, she has grey eye sockets, and that is what made me think she is coming down with something. She is not a complainer when she is unwell, like she does not cry when she hurts herself unless she is tired, she is a tough cookie and she would not necessarily tell me if she is feeling poorly, in fact might not even realise herself that is what is going on in the early stages of a cold/bug so i can't be sure if it is this, tiredness or DS or us, or what. But DS was not loud last night. He does not cry really, he is just very snotty and not breathing so well on his back so is on my chest and fussing/figiting/grimbling/feeding. DD is upstairs in her bedroom (loft conversion, she has the upstairs) so is not likely to hear too much, and normally when she is awake she will come down and crawl into bed and tell us she can't sleep, or she will come to the door and tell us DS is being too loud , or cry for mama from her bed. She hates being woken from a sleep so would not be hesitant in telling us in some form and she said she slept well, and tells us when she has not. But, maybe she doesn't want to come and disturb us? oh i hope not, she is always welcome in with us for cuddles if she can't sleep.

cirrhosis aw you have just made me cry. That is what i needed to hear. We try so hard to have a happy time. DH and i are not from the most perfect backgrounds ourselves, complete paralells, but the end result is that we both want the same things for our children, which is a happy childhood full of love. But when days like today happen, i worry that we will get it wrong, that our love won't be enough. And it is not is it? love is no good without boundaries and understanding, and guidance and all the things we are still learning about. I am glad it comes across that despite todays blip, that we are doing ok. thank you.