Nearly 4 year old and chronic overtiredness

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DS1 is nearly 4 and suffers from terrible overtiredness. He is impossible to calm down in the evenings.

We have always battled with him at bedtime, ever since he was a baby. Once he's asleep he's fine but he just can't switch off. When he was a baby he used to scream himself to sleep (not CC but any attempts at intervention on our part just made him 10 times worse). Now that he has outgrown the crying he gets very hyperactive at bedtime.

We have always had a routine at bedtime (bath, stories, songs) but it is getting increasingly difficult for him to calm down. It isn't that he's not tired - quite the opposite, but he goes into overdrive.

Examples ......
He screws his face up. sticks his tongue out and runs or jumps up and down on the spot
He jumps on the bed
He throws himself to the floor repeatedly
He stands on his head
He does 360 in the bed.

I lie with him in a dark room and sing him lullabies and think that he's about to fall asleep and, all of a sudden - Snap, he's standing on his head and beating his feet

He dropped his lunchtime nap ages ago but sometimes sleeps in the car - but this makes no difference.

It makes no difference how much exercise he has had.

He has also started waking earlier, with the same behaviour - so he's only getting about 10 hours sleep a night and he definitely needs more.

Anybody got any ideas?

What time is bedtime? not sure if I have any useful advice but all 3 of my ds's were sick last week and ds2 (2) was keeping ds1 (3.5) awake in night when he was up with temp/being sick/generally moaning we had to move his bedtime from 7pm to 6pm for a week to get him to bed without being so over tired he couldn't switch off

Only other thing we've done is leave ds's too it, I figured with ds2 at times if he falls asleep on floor whats the worse that could happen, maybe being with ds is also still stimulating? none of mine will ever fall asleep if music playing or telly on, could you try leaving him to it, make it all as boring as possible?

Sorry if thats not helpful, its so difficult to know what to offer as advice, good luck with it all x

We've moved bathtime earlier to 6pm so that we hav stories by 6:30 and DS2 (who's just turned 1) is asleep by 7. That leaves a few extra stories and songs for DS1 so that he's asleep by 7:30 but then he's often awake for another hour.

I know what you mean about leaving him to it, but now that he's older we can't. He turns lights on, he comes downstairs, he runs into our room and jumps on our bed.

I've suggested to Dh that we move bath even earlier and then let DS1 watch tv for a little while after his bath, before stories, as I think bathtime is physically more stimulating for him than watching TV. DH disagrees.

Hi...I'd stick with bathing as I think it ends a day well but for overtired kids, I read their stories in the bath, making sure their pyjamas are warming on the radiator with their towel and their teeth can be brushed in the bath if a troublsome area, if not, brushed before the bath.
I sit on the loo seat and read...when they are quiet, I read...when they are being naughty I stop...I don't mean interacting but doing something you don't want them to and I quietly say, I'll read when it is quiet again.
We then have whisper time...I only talk in a whisper even if they don't and I don't tell them to calm down or shush as this draws attention to the fact that they are being noisy..instead I go quieter and ask them something. They have to shush to listen..
Make sure the bedroom is ready with a dim light and bed ready to get in before the bath so you can go straight in and give a sticker for good behaviour in the bath...let him know he can have anothetr for good behaviour in bed with one more story and then, after the story is over, light off and go out and close door. I then put back to bed as many times as it needs me to, quietly and not chatting. After a few days, the restless bedtime normally stops.
He is overstimulated by the sounds of it and so sticking with a quiet structure works well. Good luck!
Always interested to hear what advice ends up working as good for me to have more tricks up my sleeve!!

meant to add, have a chair outside his room for you to sit on to do the back to bed stuff...that way he doesn't get anywhere...within the half hour, most children will relent. If not on the first night , certainly within a few.It's worth it in the long run.

Could he in fact be hungry? Low blood sugar can cause real behavioural issues in young children.

DD2 has an issue with controlling her blood sugar - she can't store carbohydrates so needs to eat little and often. But this wasn't discovered until she was about 4.5 (after a blood test for something else). Prior to this she was really difficult at some points in the day.

Not suggesting your son has a similar problem but maybe some supper/snack would help calm him down.

yes...good idea..a banana before bath whilst you are running the bath and getting his room ready.

maybe he wants you to stay with him so he's winding himself up on purpose? as he's nearly 4, would he respond to stickercharts or another reward for staying in his room by himself once it's bedtime? mine have always had aquarium nightlights/songs/stories on CD and the rule is they stay upstairs - up to them when they fall asleep.
with the morning waking, same deal, up to him what time he gets up but he can only come through to see you after eg 7am. you can buy special alarm clocks for kids to show them when it's time for them to come through/downstairs

Most children adore sticker charts...hence why they use them in school so much! You can get really great stickers now from places like whs...wonderful shiny bikes or cars or star wars!! My charges come out with me and choose them each week.. xx

I'd have to disagree that bath time would be more stimulating than telly - I'd stick with your wind down routine to bed, maybe just 2 stories and one song if you don't have a limit at the moment, but really try to leave him to it rather than staying with him till he's asleep, I know you said he'll run around and turn on lights, when we had this we'd put them in bed, come right down stairs, wait 5 minutes (whilst listening to them running around) go back upstairs, no comment and pop them straight into bed, if you wait outside room to catch them it becomes a game, the key is its as boring as possible, they get no attention for it. I did find even if I lay on the floor they would just shout at me ('WAKE UP MUMMY') so the affect of stimulating them is the same
banana is a good idea, all of mine (3,2,8mo) have a warm milky drink
Do you have many lights on upstairs? we can't have landing light or bathroom one on, too distracting.
For wake up we have a light on a timer plug, when it comes on they come in to see us
stickers are a great idea

just re read, I disagreed about bath time but thats just my children, you know yours best and anything is worth a try but stick with it for about a week to see if it makes a difference, one or two nights might not make too much difference.

I would agree with you about bathtimes, all children are different. My DD always found bathtime over-stimulating as a young child so we couldn't do bathtime before bed (used to do it in the morning instead). She would veg out in front of the telly so we would let her watch a favourite video/DVD before bed to relax her.

Hi I can really sympathise with you as my ds now age 5 is still bad at going to bed and getting to sleep since he was a baby. I've tried sticker charts with him but they did not work as he was not interested - however exciting the reward was. When I collect him from the childminder she would say that he is v tired however by the time we are home he has re-charged his batteries. Even the school are aware of the problem.

A few ideas which have helped us.

I don't give them any sweets, squash or juice after 3pm only milk or water.

Talk to him to find out what is on his mind.

I give a more heavier (protein) meal at dinner as this tends to make one more tired. Give pasta for lunch as its the pasta that gives them energy.

If you are going swimming, soft play etc go towards the end of the day. If you go in the morning he has the rest of the day to rest then his batteries are recharged.

I would still have bath time and put some lavender into the water as it's meant to be relaxing and to help sleep.

I would also start bedtime routine slightly later as the earlier you start the longer he has to annoy you.

Also when in bed and after the story etc, you know he is going to get up out of bed so have things around like colouring books or a story tape that can listen to or do quietly in bed and will not get over stimulated and then give him a cut off time ie 8pm that you are coming to turn the light out.

My heart does go out to you as ds went to sleep at 8:40pm last night and was up at 6am. So I dragged a v tried child to school this am.

That's exactly what happens mrs freedy! He seems ready to drop and then gets a second wind.

They all seem like really good suggestions though - thank you.

Hmm, 4 days now and still no stickers on the chart! He seems underwhelmed by the stickers!

I'm going to keep at it though, and hopefully he will be bored into submission.

DH is away tonight so things will be a little more challenging!