so, when should i get worried about toddler not talking?

[thisisyesterday]

ds2 is 2 years and 4 months.
I don't think I am worried yet, but i am certainly starting to see more and more of a gap open up between him and his peers.
he is getting so frustrated at not being able to tell me what he wants.

on paper he has quite a lot of words that he is able to say.
in reality he rarely says most of them, and some of them he has said a few times and then never again.

he also doesn't say words that you might expect him to say. he can't/won't say drink, or milk for example. He has only just started to refer to his dummy (calls it bean!)

he doesn't string any words together. although he did once say "fish man" and "bad baby" lol

That's what I thought. He does point and is able to follow a point as well

It's hard not to compare and contrast every once in a while, even when you're perfectly happy with your child as s/he is. One of my friends has a little girl who says several things i.e. if you say 'where's the cat?' she'll say 'meow'. She has also mastered the 'AWAY, MINE!' defence Whenever I see them I always have a little niggle about my DS's speech, even when he's communicating something to me in another way (he loves washing up, the weirdo, so will go to the kitchen step and indicate that he wants me to get it out).

Oh god I'm even more worried now

My Ds certainly points etc

I used to say to 13/14 month old ds1 'look at the snake' and get a sssss, or 'what does a duck say?' and get 'qua qua qua' -He said meeow as well and moo thinking about it - he was good at animal sounds! but ten years later he doesn't talk at all - said ssss for the first time in about 9 years the other day. Those early words are not as important as things like pointing. Sounds depend a lot on motor skills. If pointing and lots of back and forth interaction is there it's too early to worry about speech.

Maxy I'm trying to reassure cyteen not worry you!!

His motor skills are amazing though.

it's ok, me and DH have this image of him never talking so I am kinda worried
If you don't mind me asking, why does your son not speak?

I'd really recommmend sally ward for general speech/language concerns. If it's more of a word production problem then Kaufman cards are helpful. They're designed for use with verbal dyspraxia. The UK uses a different system called the Nuffield system which is great. If you can get a salt to work with you but I prefer Kaufman cards if you're going it alone. I can't link as I'm on iPod but will do tonight.

I bought Kaufman cards for ds1 but they weren't that helpful. Worked a treat with ds2 though who has a very odd speech production problem. Private salt assesed him and suspected verbal dyspraxia - his sounds were all over the place. By the time we saw nhs Sslt it had been sorted - we only used Kaufman cards.

OOh thanks, will look into them. odd speech problem........hmm souding familiar! He make s alot of noise from the back of his throat....he NEVER shuts up, always talking just makes no sense!

One interesting thing though, not sure if you have seen the new alphablocks on cbeebies? DS quite taken with them so we went on line and each letter comes on and ssys it's sound so i was repeating it then DS had a go, so it was interesting getting him to say sounds that he wouldn't normally say. Though he couldn't say j which is great as his name is James

Ds1 is severely autistic so although he has an excellent understanding of nouns the rest of his language comprehension is shaky. It's only recently that he learned a functional yes/no for example. He also has big motor problems so in the main produces vowels - a lot of consonants are impossible for him to say. And some combinations. For example I asked him earlier if he wanted to do something 'yes' (tapped one spot) or 'no' tapped another spot. He tapped no but could only say 'na' - if you make the sounds you can see 'na' is very open mouthed - the vast majority if sounds he can make are like that.

So in his case it's a motor plus language problem. He's always been very affectionate and sociable so that didn't help highlight his problems but as a two year old 2 key signs were missed By the pros - I told them- - he couldn't point or follow a point and he couldn't imitate. Consequently we wasted a lot of time when he should really have been getting help.

Oh that sounds good. Ds1's recent ssssss game from a spelling programme where the computer said 'say sssss' and he did!

Anything that gets mouth muscles working is good - try googling mr Tongue. Also blowing ping ping balls or picking up 100's and 10000's with Tongue and lips. Licking honey off lips, blowing bubbles and candles.... Etc etc.

Came not game - I am on the iPod still - hopeless!

Ah right I see, thank you for that. DS can imitate point etc etc. But the childhood apraxia is an interesting one. Very interesting. Will look into the cards too.

Your son does sound quite like ds2. He was utterly incomprehensible at 3, still had problems at 4, now aged 8 gets distinctions in speech exams and recently won a speech competition. The days when he pronounced grandad 'menya' and granny 'ook' have long gone!

wow!! Fab

It is all gng gng gng really, though he thinks he is saying the word, he just emphasizes the gng even more!!! then looks at me like I'm deaf!

'menya' etc was aged 3 I think ds2 was all simple sounds before then. When the private salt assessed him we ended up laughing (I did know her very well!) as he was so all over the place. He sorted most of his sounds suddenly over the course of a week (salt couldn't believe it) then we just had to do some work on odd ones that were still missing for a year or so - that was fine tuning though and a world away from where we began.

"The main thing you need to worry about in a 19 month old is pointing. If a 19 month old is pointing then you don't need to worry about speech. "

Do you mean "worry" as regarding an ASD suspicion? Because there are lots of reasons where a child may point and there still be planty of reasons to be concerned regarding their speech.

Yes but at 19 months you cannot pick most of those up. Sure get a hearing test if you have concerns but at 19 months you are not going to pick up verbal dyspraxia or other speech disorders. Many areas won't refer for speech only problems until a child is 2 - although they will refer for no pointing from 18 or 19 months.

If a 19 month old is pointing and communicating well but not speaking the chances - the overwhelmingly mist likely scenario is that you are seeing entirely typical development. If their speech continues to be unclear or not develop then SALTs will start working on that from about 2+. of course there may be exceptions for example a child may have CP or known hypotonia or a known syndrome. But for an otherwise normally developing child the hcp's will look out for social development -so pointing etc and language (esp receptive skills) before 2,although receptive language skills tend not to be assesed formally until near 2 ime- and speech development somewhere between 2 and 3.

And remember I was posting in response to cyteen whose son is pointing, following a point, shows good comprehension but isn't producing many words.

For a 19 month old the lack of words isn't a huge red flag. If he wasn't pointing to things that interest him it would be a red flag. If he's not started talking a 2.0- 2.5 but is pointing then yes he needs a referral but not at 19 months.

Ime people get very worried about lack of words (understandably) without realising that the non-verbal communication their child is doing is a brilliant and positive sign that all is well. Worrying about a child's speech is exhausting so there's no point doing it without need.

I would always tell anyone with concerns to get referred but speech referrals Ime are hard to get before 2 so it helps to know when to push and when it's appropriate to watch and wait.

There is a good website for anyone worried about language development called first signs which allows anyone concerned to 'test' their child from 15 months although the early tests only look for pointing/following a point etc.

I see. I wasn't picking, I just wasn't sure what you meant exactly.

Can you tell me the website you mean, and is it good for slightly older children too?

DS2 is 2 and nearly 2 months and says very little. HV has referred him to SALT.

He's good at pointing, following instructions and facially very communicative. He's also master of saying something once and then not saying it again.

I nearly cried when he said mummy for the first time a month ago.

Am not too worried but it is a niggle hence I asked for a referral.

DH didn't talk until 2.5years and is pretty bright now - so I blame him

sorry, I see you gave the name. Going blind
Thanks

sorry, no I didn't think you were picking. I just try to be careful about what I say because it's always a balance between people being unnecessarily worried or not following up something that needs following.

First Signs is centred around early identification of autism although people like Stanley Greenspan have a wider remit and pages such as the milestone chart are very useful in a more general sense.

The screening they offer could be useful if you want to get a HV or GP to refer you and they're reluctant, but a quick google search will bring up the M-CHAT (or your HV should be able to administer it) so there isn't any need to just pay for that.

traceybath - my dd (22 months) is the same - she will shrug and hold out her hands for 'wheres it gone?' and has developed lots of other signs but wont verbalise very much at all - or will but only once - months ago she clearly said 'wheres she gone?' when someone went upstairs but then some sort of door closed and we havent had anything at all since. All very odd.

She has a much older ds and I think we all tend to talk for her iyswim - he was a very early talker...(different dads though it genetics plays a part)

I had one son who clearly wasn't understanding things at 18 months (it astonished me to see the other kids following simple commands). I ignored it. It all "clicked" later. He's thriving - excelling, really.

Cue second son, same problem, "oh, I thought, he's like his brother, it'll be the same". It was and it wasn't. It runs in the family, it was genetic, it was how he is supposed to be, but it went deeper for longer and so was disabling. I've kind of devoted the last 18 months to helping him catch up. He's also thriving now at 4.6 but we aren't out of the woods yet.

So when people say that something "runs in the family" then, yes, that's very helpful in a way, but these traits don't come down in an identical way to each family member, so it doesn't mean you can safely do nothing just because it all worked out fine for someone else.

In retrospect, I'd have clicked into gear when DS2 turned 2.0, rather than starting to worry at 2.6 and finding the resources I needed a few months later (mainly through this forum)

By the way, I incessantly recommend the Hanen book "It Takes Two to Talk" to anyone who will listen. It trains parents in appropriate techniques to help a child with delayed language. It is totally non-scary, having no milestone charts nor mentioning autism, etc. You can show it to husbands/mothers in law without starting a huge debate.