so, when should i get worried about toddler not talking?

[thisisyesterday]

ds2 is 2 years and 4 months.
I don't think I am worried yet, but i am certainly starting to see more and more of a gap open up between him and his peers.
he is getting so frustrated at not being able to tell me what he wants.

on paper he has quite a lot of words that he is able to say.
in reality he rarely says most of them, and some of them he has said a few times and then never again.

he also doesn't say words that you might expect him to say. he can't/won't say drink, or milk for example. He has only just started to refer to his dummy (calls it bean!)

he doesn't string any words together. although he did once say "fish man" and "bad baby" lol

Just out of interest, does DC1 talk a lot? The main reason for my question is that I was having the discussion with my Dsis yesterday about this as my 8.5 month DD does a lot of screeching and growling but doesn't actually do too much babbling IYSWIM. Which raised the subject of her DC. My Dnephew was their DC1 and my DNiece was born when he was 5, so he actually did a lot of talking for her, which led to her talking a bit later, or that was their theory... . Maybe something similar is happening in your house?

Of course if there are signs of hearing probs. that 's different; giving up dairy can help a lot with glue ear though.

Ppeatfruit - some children will just be "late bloomers". For others, delayed speech may be indicative of a deeper underlying problem. I think that is what people are trying to gauge - this isn't about competitive parenting.

From what I have read here, it seems my little nephew's speech is more delayed than most. I'm pretty much certain he doesn't have a wider vocabulary at home. I'll be seeing him next week and, having read this, I think I'll try to find a way of suggesting that my sister makes an appointment with the SALT. If longish waiting times arec typical, then I guess it makes sense to get on the waiting list sooner rather than later. Just hope I don't upset or offend my lovely sister and her dh.

Really, really bad advice for a small child to give up dairy on the off chance they might have an undiagnosed problem that would possibly not responds to it anyway!!

Speech in a 2 year old isn't the most important thing. It's ability to communicate that's very important - ds2 had incomprehensible speech until he was 3, I thought he might have verbal dyspraxia but I knew he was communicating ok because he understood everything (even when given out of context with no visual cues) and he was pointing and gesturing like mad to communicate.

Ds1 appeared to understand everything, but strip away the context and he really struggled. He was a happy, content little boy who aged 2 was happy to snuggle up with me with a book but he didn't point and in his case the turned out to be very important.

Usually late talking isn't really a problem and most kids do get there, but it's really important to pick up the ones who need extra help as early as possible as it makes such a difference. And that's difficult when waiting lists of assessments are so long.

Had we not moved when we did we would have waited in total 3 years for the big assessment that ds1 needed, because we moved we 'only' waited just over a year.

My DS is the same. 2.5 and only saying about 30-40 words, most of them wrong. He only started calling me 'Ma' the other day and still can't say mummy - i have been "Ga" up until now! I have seen a SALT who says he is normal just a late talker. My husband and his brother didnt talk until they were 3 and SALT says that is probably the reason and it is genetic. So i can blame my husband!
This really seems to be very common with boys so try not to worry, I am not too concerned.

well he is already dairy free anyway, as he is intolerant to it.

my eldest does talk a fair bit yes, and this is one of the things I Have been putting the delay in ds2's speech down to.
I know that being a boy and being the second child means he is more likely to talk later anyway. it just seems like it's getting very late now

I know I shouldn't compare, but it's hard not to when children the same age as him are speaking in complete sentences! lol

and yes, he probably is just going to start coming out in sentences when he turns 3 or something, but i also think that it can't hurt to be ijn the system already, just in case it is something more sinister.
I might take him to the GP rather than the HV actually just so she can have a look in his ears and stuff too

it's reassuring how many people have responded on here though, I do feel less alone now

I would definately get him in the system-you can always come out if there are no problems.My DS was saying around 30 words at 2 and joining 2 words together so was borederline (think the benchmark is joining 2 words at 2 and 3 words at 3)but he had other speech related problems-ie lots of dribbling and he used to cut off the ends of words. Initially seen by SALT after MUCH pushing who said all was fine and I came home from that appt and re referred him myself cos I knew all was not right...eventually seen at 3 and diagnosed with moderate verbal dyspraxia...intensive speech therapy early on CAN make a huge difference...there is probably nothing to worry about and some DC do just talk late but no harm in being in the system as it takes so bloody long...hope all is well

DN isn't saying any words at all and he will be 3yo in a few months time. There seem to be loads of boys with this 'problem' (even though most of the time it seems to fix itself through time). Better to get it checked out to be sure that it's nothing sinister though.

I'm an SLT

It's VERY common in boys

I used to see this all the time in community clinic.

Hard to be sure wihtout assessemtn and knowing all the facts.

Get him on the waiting list but be sure to come off and cancel if you feel you no longer need it so that someone else can have the appt.

Lovechoc, your niece needs assessing. Has she been seen?

I'm in same boat with DS who was 2 last week. He has no clear words, but does point a lot, follows a point and understands everything I say even out of context. I'm still worrying about it though as the gap with his peers seems huge. It's good to read that others are experiencing the same thing (although not good IYKWIM).

He's had a hearing test and has some fluid in his ear and I've sorted out a private SALT as GP wouldn't refer him as said he was too young. SALT thinks that he may have intermittent glue ear and he's having another hearing test soon, but SALT says that she can hear progress so that's good.

We are working hard on giving him choices to show him the benefit of communication and I'm also really praising him for any attempt to say a word which also seems to help.

Definitely agree with others who say get the referral and fingers crossed you won't need it!

Nephew hasn't been seen yet, but the appointment for SALT is imminent. they wanted (the parents) to wait to give him a chance to talk of his own accord for a full year and have now decided that he needs assessed. he is not talking, no words at all. I am thinking perhaps he's partially deaf, but then again I've not seen him in over a year so not the best person to make sweeping statements! think that should be left to SALT really. Hope they find out what's going on soon. It's a worrying time.

dd was seen by speech therapists at 2.5 as she was saying very little. They wrote some quite judgy reports, saw her with me, dh and at nursery- until nursery suggested to me I wrote & ask for her to be taken off their books. Now at 5 she is very very chatty & Schoool have no probs

ooh, this is reassuring - pfb is 17 months and stopped saying words (and only duc' was ever consistent) and people are going "how many words does he have?"

I'm a bit paranoid because I'm deaf and most of my hearing problems happened around age 2, so want to make sure anything gets picked up ASAP (especially as local paed audiologist is totally incompetent at using TextRelay or email and only gave me an appt after getting bollocked by my HV who passed on MrNC's mobile number - technically HV shouldn't have. So MrNC went to the appt and didn't really understand what was happening) He's got more hearing than me at any rate (likes toys I didn't know were rattles until he shook them for ages)

What counts as a 'word', anyway? If ds goes 'ay' when pointing at planes or trains, is that one or two? I suspect that ds isn't talking so much because I couldn't understand his efforts anyway. But then he's not talking now at nursery either...

Runny.. The japanese and chinese have not had dairy for thousands of years. how did they manage i wonder?? (until western influences) now they are fat have runny noses etc etc. Cows milk is meant for calves.the protein molecules are v. difficult for most human guts to digest properly.
After 1yr. old the extra milk is not nec. anyway.

yes but the chinese/japaneses also have a very different diet overall than we do. western man has adapted to a diet high in dairy over the centuries, which is what our bodies expect.

Obviously I am not saying that you can';t live absolutely healthily without dairy, myself and ds2 are proof that you can. But there;s a big difference between a traditional Japanese/chinese diet, and a western diet with the dairy removed.

I also don't think you can generalise at all that "now they are fat and have runny noses"!!! what a strange statement to make

glucose

What was judgy about the reports?

I ask because I think it's always hard to strike a balance. In the old days we wrote whatever we wanted to write in the reports because they were never copied to parents (which is incredible, I know).

These days we can't write anything without being seen as "judgy". Unfortunately it doubles our workload because we have to write hugely PC reports that don't really say what we mean and we have to phone the other professionals to discuss the things we couldn't write in the report.

For example, I had to write a report on a child who was clearly living in squalor and needed urgent assessment on many fronts.

But I had to write the sort of report the parent doesn't mind reading so had to follow this up with loads of phone calls which took all morning.

I only work 2 days a week so spent a whole quarter of my week making phone calls to avoid writing anything judgy in the letter!

thisisyesterday - my Ds is 2yrs 5 months and starts speech therapy on Tuesday. He hardly says anything though EXCELLENT at communicating. He also knos colours shapes etc etc so I know he is developing fine. I referred him in September when he was 2, got seen initially in November and starts group sessions on Tuesday, so I got seen very very quickly, guess it depends on your area.

The thing that struck a note with me with your post though, is that my DS has also said many things in the past and now does not say them. he cannot say mummy or daddy or anyones names, yet when he was 13 months old he said "lo Gumar" on the phone to my Mum We have also heard him say Daddy as clear as day.....once!! He can now say mamma (though is usually mamam) and Dadda and understands this very well, if he sees me making a coffee for Dh he will go and shout him "Dadda" without me asking him to. But he is very knowledgeable and very very with it, but I really sympathise with your frustration

I am a teaching assistant normally and have "performed" many speech therapy activities for children in school - things e have been given from their SALT to do with them, now granted, they also have had "global delay" which my DS does not, but they were always very patronizing and boring.

I am dreading th group setting next week tbh ladyintheradiator - due to what I already know and pure speculation! I think my DS just won't speak, I know he is intelligent (does not take after me, but his dad lol) and they speak to him like man.....man eat.....man eat cake......he just looks at them like they are crazy. He knows things I have not taught him, he does not attend nursery, he is like a sponge and also very very capable and confident, it is not even shyness!

I feel sick about spending an hour there next week, also it is between 3 and 4, ds' worse time as he will be crotchety, though he loves company and doing so hoping he will enjoy it anyway. They know he has no other issues so hope it is not too patronizing

I think SALTs have to cover all the basics because it can make a difference to some children - frustrating though if your child's main problem is word production rather than receptive language.

That's where the Sally Ward book is so good - she shares all the basics in a non-patronising way and uses lots of case studies etc.

I also think SALTs often have a problem explaining to parents that their children aren't necessarily understanding as much as they think. For example I found it quite difficult to understand that although 2 year old ds1 could understand 'go and get you coat' or 'puck your toys up' it didn't mean he was understanding 2 word sentences (he wasn't). I found this hard to compute at first because in some ways he seemed advanced - hd knew all his letters, numbers etc aged 2 could sing in tune and demonstrated a very good memory. In fact his problems were severe and aged 10 he still can't talk.

The problem is compounded by the fact a lot of NHS
SALTs act in consultant type roles where they asses then give you printed sheets of ideas. This is fine for relatively simple problems but not so good if your child's needs are complex and because there is limited hands on work it's hard for SALT and parent to communicate effectively. Ds1's NHS SALT was staggered to see ds1 give his private SALT a cuddle - gobsmacked - yet I'd been telling her he was like that with people hd knew for years - she obviously hadn't believed me and never saw enough of him to get to know him enough for him to want to cuddle her!

I think the case you describe is a bit different koala because it sounds like child protection but I really fund it helpful for all concerned to see what you are talking about so when I was trying to get my head round the idea that ds1 didn't understand as much as I thought it was helpful for me to be shown how to administer the test myself. No he didn't understand - it wasn't a stranger person effect. Likewise I now video ds1 doing things that I want to discuss. His school increased his work challenges when they saw on video what he was doing at home and had I fine it years ago it would have helped me desk with the SALT who refused him speech therapy because she said he couldn't do anything do wasn't worth giving salt to.

Communication is hard between pros and parents - I'm not sure that having different lines for other pros and parents us helpful - after all parents do most of the therapy work these days - perhaps encourage them to video interactions with their children to discuss issues with them. Most parents just want to be told how to help their children.

Sorry iPod typing. The group sessions sound a bit hopeless. Do you get individual feedback as well? Seems a bit pointless if not.

What an interesting thread. My DS is 19mo and despite babbling away ten to the dozen from dawn till dusk (and sometimes beyond) he has hardly any actual words. He does a beautifully articulated 'No' (sometimes accompanied by emphatic arm gestures ), and knows that I am Mamamamamamama and DP is Dadadadadadadada, but that's about it. But when I look at him and listen to him, I can see that he understands everything that's going on around him. I swing between mildly wondering when, if ever, to be concerned, and remembering that DP didn't speak until he was 3.

The main thing you need to worry about in a 19 month old is pointing. If a 19 month old is pointing then you don't need to worry about speech.