6yr old /nearly 7yo ds - normal social behaviour?

[smoggie]

I'm hoping someone can give some advice please. I used to be a fairly regular poster, but have been absent for the last few years.
ds1 is 7 in March. We've always had to "manage" his behaviour to varying degrees.
He's a very bright, articulate confident boy, loves football and all sports , popular in class, good company etc.
He did have tantrums of epic proportions form the age of 3-5 and all of this despite clear boundaries and follow-up of threats/consequences from us....we're not pushovers by any means but also not draconian "children should be seen and not heard" types either.

The problem has always been when he's in "company" - i.e. when we're visiting other people. It goes beyond "being a bit silly" and he just seems to revert to almost toddler behaviour of ignoring, being far too boisterous, saying mildly rude things/behaviour (burping loudly, talking about willies etc) but nonetheless after he's been warned not to and given clear consequences of what will happen if he continues. It's as if he gets so over-excited by the situation that all of the social norms he knows from school etc. go out of the window. I've tried the telling off directly there and then, giving consequences, taking to one side and talking calmly, praising ++++++. It's getting to the stage where I see his (female) cousins can't be bothered with him and tend to devote their attention to his younger brother - which I think exacerbates the situation. It doesn't happen all of the time, so I know he can control it to a point, but when he can't control it, he really can't and you just can't seem to get through to him to calm down/listen

WE do struggle with attention and concentration with homework and he will not read for pleasure unless bribed!! - he will only do the bare minimum - but is still one of the top of the class. It's the concentration that isn't there. The teachers usually mention his concentration, and say that if he were to fully apply himself there would be no stopping him.

I had thought by now he would have grown out of it, but to be honest as he's getting older I think it's becoming clearer that there may be a "problem". His younger brother (nearly 5 yrs old) is already mores sensible and socially appropriate than he is. I just wonder if it's getting to the point when it can't be excused on the grounds of his age and whether there's something else going on.

Sorry to blather on, but I'm just after some advice as to whether this sounds normal or whether at this age I should be able to expect hat I can tell him to stop some behaviour when we're out and he will.
Any advice gratefully received.

bump - please!

My DS2 is the exact same age
Maybe you are expeting too muxh of him
If he has to be bribed to read for pleasure then it obv isnt a pleasure for him in hte first place.
His behaviour in public does seem a bit over the top, my DS can still bbe silly, but can mangae to calm himself when told to.

I do think that firstborn boys have a tendancy to be silly/odd/socially immature. I count my own in this. I think this is especially a problem if they are bright. This can be a difficult combination.

It doesn't sound completely outside the normal range, because it sounds as if he can control stuff in some contexts - so the ability is there.

It sounds like a personality issue to me (rather than a medical issue - I think that's what you're concerned about?) - that he has quite a strong streak of danger-seeking (or thrill-seeking) so that when an ad hoc boundary (like aspects of behaving on a visit) appears in front of him he just HAS to see what will happen if he tests it. It's probably one of the things that makes him good at sports, to be honest - because it'll make him take risks and react quickly to chances. Completely consistent with a low boredom threshold too.

But even if it is just a personality issue, I do agree it needs dealing with (for his own sake, too - he doesn't want to be a 35 year old saying inappropriate stuff to get a reaction). Would it be too difficult for you to treat this like toddler-boundary testing, so that you say to him "We're going to visit X. If you feel like being silly, come and tell me and we'll find something for you to do [this is so that he's distracted from the impulse]. But if you are silly, we will come straight home" - and follow it through, including packing up the whole family and going? I think he needs to feel that the consequences (of being silly) are more negative than the thrill (of being silly) is positive.

Pixie- he's definitely not shy - on the contrary, he does like to talk to adults and engage in conversation almost at their level to be honest.
He's just had a "moment" after playing football with dh. We always set a boundary/time cut off/number of goals cut off as from experience we know he needs this....but even then we always have histrionics when it reaches that end point! 5 mins later he's fine and apologetic.
He used to be aggressive when younger and unable to control his anger but not so much now, so I'd discounted anything as extreme as ADHD to be honest...but I might have to do a bit more reading up on it.

I just feel so disappointed for him on his behalf really as when he's in these social situations (not always, but usually) I feel he lets himself down as people don't always see the extremely loving, caring, thoughtful little boy he is at home. He's always needed someone there to play with and won't play independently at all, most of the time he won't go upstairs unless someone goes with him

With the reading we go through phases of really pushing it, then leaving alone. We're in a leaving alone phase at the moment but using sneaky stealth - like getting him to read from his atlas "facts" (which he loves) about places and I have to guess the country! This seems to work, but he will hardly ever read a fiction chapter alone/without coercion.
I feel :-( at the thought of something else going on and don't want to label him unnecessarily if it's just a case of using different parenting/behaviour techniques that I'm not aware of.

Bink - that does sound like him to be honest - quite competitive (in sports in particular) and academically - although not willing to put the effort in necessarily in the academic stuff. Thankfully he more than gets by with little effort at the moment, but that's not going to last for ever.
THe last time we visited the in-laws I did the talk before hand - in a very calm way and told him what I expected and what would happen if he didn't .....he lasted really well before the meal whilst the children were playing, but then during the meal it was as if he'd used all of his "credits" and he started getting silly again. I made sure I was sitting next to him and kept quietly talking to him reassuring him and telling him when he was straying over the line, he managed OK, the best he'd done in a long while, but it still wasn't ideal....and to be honest I just think "should I still be having to do this at nearly 7yo?"

Merle - can I ask how you have dealt with this. WOuld really welcome tips that work!!

I get so sad sometimes when he just "lets himself down" in these situations because he really is a wonderful bright, loving, happy little boy

Well it sounds as if you are doing exactly the right thing - the 'talking him down' approach, and I'm sympathetic to both of you - you for the effort, and him for trying to deal with impulses which are clearly very strong - because it sounds like he IS trying.

I know he's not keen on reading, but is there something else of a calming sort that he enjoys? - comics, or drawing, or Lego? Because I think what I would do is just take on board that he's got limited stamina for managing his impulses, and when he starts going off the rails I'd say, You've done really well so far, but now you need to calm down a bit, here's your [Lego] and you can just settle with that for a while.

I'd also keep a close eye on how long he manages to keep under control, and try to extend it little by little, with lots of praise for each bit of extension. Think of it like being able to sit through a concert, or church service - no-one can do it at two, but gradually you get able to keep focus for longer and longer - I think his boredom threshold and energy just make it more difficult for him to develop that stamina.

6, even if nearly 7, is fine, seriously, for this sort of short-focus, I really do think. If you had a 10yo acting up after 20 mins, then you could worry.

The other thing I did want to say (and I'm sure you don't need this saying, I just want to say it!) is that it is important he doesn't feel compared-and-contrasted with his little brother. Because nothing is going to feed the little-devil urges more than feeling that Perfect Peter is Perfect and THEREFORE he has no option BUT to be Horrid Henry. (I know this. I have a perfect sister. I was not an ideally-behaved child.)

Smoggie- would love to give you some tips but have never done anything other than the things which you have listed. Sometimes they have seemed to have an effect, sometimes they don't.

I remember exactly the same effects on cousins, especially females ones. It was embarassing, at times. I remember a mortifying incident in the communal sitting-room of a youth hostel, during which he acted in such a silly way, all for the benefit of several other families of boys, who he seemed to want to impress. I tried very hard to curtail this, but in the end went up to the room and I was very cross indeed.

He's now 10 and is off to the grammar school in September. He's a lot better, most of the time. Some clever/sensitive children seem to take the long route to maturity.

Thank you so much for taking the time to post - I really do appreciate all of your comments and input.
I will use technique you suggest Bink for managing his impulses.
And yes I take on board the comparison thing - we really don't use this overtly to him by saying anything but we also need to make sure there aren't any covert comparisons that he's picking up on. I know I have been guilty of comparing him very occasionally with his friends in a moment of desperation...but will be more careful about that.
Thank you so much. I think I need to indulge my mumsnet urges more often - I'd forgotten how helpful it can be!!

I wouldn't want you to think we had it sussed, either. After a really good period of progress and behaviour, this weekend he's been awful.