Two of my boys are shockingly rude. You've gotta help me sort them out. Pleeeeaaaase!!

[Spidermama]

I have the best and the worst behaved children at the local school. DD1 and DS3 are always winning awards for good work and excellent behaviour. They have a great positive mental attitude and are kind and thoughtful to others.

DS2 and DS4 however are both very similar. They're rude, disruptive, disobedient at school and at home and they often seem to be angry. They seem to flare up out of nowhere, hurl abuse at people then be fine again. They are 10 and 5.

The 10 year old has T1 diabetes and this goes some way to explaining, though not excusing, his behaviour. His brother, who turned 5 last week, has no such explanation. They both swear, shout at people and do smart arsed faces when they are being told off.

It has reached crisis point with DS1. He has had 8 detentions so far this academic year. His teacher and I email each other several times a week for updates. He's very, very bright and his teacher has told me that were it not for his bad attitude he would be on the G&T register.

I've talked endlessly to them both, then moved on to confiscation of skateboards etc, but it really seems to be a personality thing with them and to be honest I don't really know where to go from here.

My family are all respectful and well behaved whereas dh's upbringing was full of madness, violence and trouble at school. (His brothers rather than him.) I feel out of my depth, No-one behaved like this in my family but I remember boys at school who did and quite frankly I despised them for it.

I'm really worried as DH will be going away this year for months on end and I'm dreading family life being disrupted so badly by my dss. I really resent that the two naughty ones take up so much of my time the others miss out.

Of course they are both absolutely lovely, fantastic kids when they want to be and are capable of being kind and doing as they're told.

I've read Raising Boys and Raising a Son. Any tips or recommendations would be very much appreicated.

Anyone?

Oh right. Cheers for that then. I'm glad I went to the bother of writing all that lot down.

bumping for you

I can't think of any useful advice

It sounds FECKING TERRIBLE if that helps at all (no)

gosh spidermama, i wish i had an answer.

i have a similar thing with my 5 year old and it's driving me crazy tbh.

do you think that it's an attention thing?

do you think the 5 year old is copying his older brother?

have you tried talking to the eldest and asking why he behaves like that?

what is your reaction when they swear etc?

Way out of my depth sorry as I only have a 3 and 5 year old with no issues (yet!!).

Only thing that jumped out at me was, should the G&T register be a reward for only the well behaved?? Would he be better behaved if he was being stretched more at school?

Hope someone will be along soon to help you out more...

Obviously attitude shouldn't stop him being on the G&T register.

What do you mean, his diabetes explains his behaviour?

Umm, I don't know.

I suspct that the answer is not going to be the same for each boy.

When DS was about 5 and going thorugh a loud and bad mannerd phase, i would instigate a family 'manners' competition between DS and DP (who has unreliable table manners, fo e,g). We made it fun, DP would 'act up' and I would demonstrate perfect practice (smug!! ). We'd keep score over a weekend, and any loud shouting / farting etc would earn a big cross on the chart.

But I'm not sure this would work in a big family, and certainly not with a 10 yo.

I am assuming you are running them into the ground with physical activity, as much as possible, as this seems to be such a cause of boy-outbreaks. Out them on role as someone they admoire? Someone poised and well mannerd and behaved? James bond ,etc? Give a prize fo the most consistently maintained suave hero?

Send them to stay with an aunt for a while? I was a loud and racketing child - a Nancy Blackett at heart - but had to behave when in other people's houses.

Firstly, he should be on the gifted and talented register no matter what his behaviour-it's a special need and it's not inclusive or mindful of 'every child matters' policy to keep him off it. The more stimulated he is by school work the better.

I would focus on the eldest (I appreciate what you say about it being crap that you have to ignore the well behaved kids-I know exactly how awful that feels) as the youngest is likely following his lead to an extent. What is he into? Can you involve him in activities that will stimulate and divert him? Anything from seascouts to karate. Is he very different? I have seen the Dore programme work well with super bright 'naughty' kids.

Whatever you do with regard to the poor behaviour consistency is the key imo. |If you threaten to confiscate something then no second chances. If you feel that's really not working then there is the 'How to talk so kids will listen' approach.

My approach with my very challenging 7yrold with Aspergers has been a combination of 'kill it with love' (ie every small thing he does right is picked out and specfically praised as well as lots of physical affection too), very firm, consistent and a little bit scary when it comes to poor behaviour and lots of distraction and stimulation. Breakthroughs for us have included finding an incredibly inclusive football club and building lovely positve routines of hugs and kisses into our everyday life.

Keep bumping _ I do believe every answer is on mumsnet somewhere.

what first comes to mind is doing things together as a family, even a game of indoor football or hide and seek, something fun and innocent.

I think sometimes I lose my way with the children, I feel sort of out of sync with one of them, you need to try to get them back with you. Do you do separate bedtimes? Could you spend a bit of time with each one chatting about their days - you know 'what was the best thing about today? and the worst.

Negative feelings need to be acknowledged and validated, it's okay to feel angry, but it is not okay to hurt other people with that anger.

Try and have fun with them, I think they sense when you're worried and that makes them feel bad and then they behave worse. Tell yourself it's all okay and you CAN handle it and really think about how you're going to deal with situations before they happen.

Be in charge and be happy

Good luck - you sound like a lovely mum.

Thanks. Some good advice on here. I'm feeling a bit delicate tonight but hope to come back on tomorrow when I'm feeling stronger.

I feel very on your DS's behalf that his position on the G&T register seems to be a matter of behaviour rather than ability - and may well be adding to his frustration and boredom. Are they giving him challenging enough work? Praising his achiveents and ability when he does well?

I think boys very quickly can find themselves trapped in a role, told off a lot, feeling esentful, so misbehaving even more, and then feel out of control and so rather feel a victim of everyone's approbation they CREATE trouble for themselves, as a weird way to feel in control.

Also, some boys are like a husky team, and respond well to firm, autocratic leadership and boundaries from a top dog. Might they be like that? I have 2 very good-friend families nearby who often take each others kids to the park. Family 1 have a boy who is irrepresible in every way, delightful, but ALWAYS in trouble, and runs his mother ragged. She is lovely - creative, intuitive, talks reasonably to her kids, empowers them. When the (also lovely) Dad of family 2 takes the kids to the park he treats the boy as he would one of his own: very strict firm guidelines, makes it v clear he won't respond unless spoken to nicely and not interrupted, plays great games with them, but any line-crossing is stamped on instantly and without fluff or shilly shally. the boy behaves totally differently, and Hero-worships the Dad - always begs to be taken to the park by hi - he loves the feeling of being part of his team.

Funnily enough Blu the family 2 dad you describe sounds very like dh. He's firm and commanding with one of ds's 'livlier' friends who responds very well and always loves coming round or going out with ds and dh.
However ds doesn't respond so well. It seems to make him angry and rebellious sometimes.

He's going to see an art therapist soon. He's on the waiting list. I'm really hoping she can be of some help to deal with his stress and anger. I really do think the vast majority of it comes from his diabetes. He hasn't really accepted it yet and still thinks it's so desperately unfair. I guess I need to find a way to help him through that but it's hard as, because he rightly points out, we couldn't possibly understands what it feels like.

Part of me always wants to hug him and say of course we can't understand and how awful it must be for him, and part of me wants to say, 'Oh come on. Lots of people have much worse stuff to deal with. Move on.'

It is a relentless sentence. He battles and tries to get control of it but all too often it controls him.

What do art therapists do?

10year old dc should be in the G&T - he needs to be stretched.

i would also try to get these two very very active out of school - swimming clubs, tri-athlon, football, cross country - anything of this ilk and everything if you can get them. I would also try judo, karate or boxing to try to get them focused.

I really do beleive that sport of all kinds and lot os it can help to tier dc out to strech them and to help with hormone changes - which the 10 year old will have in the next 2-5 years.

The sports can also make them feel good about themselves, which may be a problem

Also drama for the little one

G&T teacher at DD's school recommends the book "philosophy for kids" to get restless and impatient children to sit and think about things outside their own experience...worked with my DD and her totally hyper brain...mind you, as the parent, you have to read it first so you know what is in there when the questions start flying!

Thanks Miggsie. I'll have a look.

Ivy I think one of the problems is that we haven't been out as much because of it being winter.

That said the 10 year old plays football twice a week and does skateboarding for about an hour every day after school.

The little one's stuck in though.

Ah, I hadn't factored in the diabetes.

I guess he will need some sympathy and indulgence before he can do the 'come on, time to get on with life' bit.

Also - doesn't diabetes affect mood and cause big tantrums, outbursts and aggression when the levels go a bit haywire? I saw some discussion about this on another thread. He may feel as if he is having to get used to being a slightly different person to the one he thought he was. Does he know any other kids his age who have diabetes? It may be good if he met some.

Art therapists - do they get people to express, explore and understand their feelings through art rather than talk?

Yes Blu high blood sugar really affects his mood. Low does too in a different way. There's not too much can be done about this apart from really step up attempts to get on top of his readings, which we do regularly.

What I, or the art therapist, may be able to do something about is the other stuff. The anger at being different and having to adhere to such a strict and time consuming regime and, of course, having to do painful lood tests and injections at least six times every day possibly for the rest of his life.

But this is how it is. There's no point raging at the injustice and he has been diagnosed for five years now so I thought it might have got better.

I'm trying to get the time to move all our furniture and things around into different rooms so he can have a room of his own. I think it's a bit crap for a 10 year old to have to share with a 5 and a 7 year old. Not great for them either!

That sounds like a really good idea.
He will be grateful for the personal space. If he is an angry type you'd think the behaviour would come from either you or his Dad. If not, maybe it is all to do with the diabetes sugar highs and lows?
Poor boy to be so stressed all the time. err...I know you might not want to, but have you asked the Doctor if he needs some medical help calming down?