My 9-year-old DD can't sleep - help needed!

[loobs2]

Our daughter has always been fine at bedtime - up until a few weeks ago. She gets ready for bed at 7p.m., watches TV till 9 then goes to bed and reads till she feels tired. But she has developed these rituals/compulsive behaviours - she has to get up and move things 'to the right place' in her room, she has to look out of her window, she straightens her slippers - stuff like that. She finds it very upsetting as she says she is tired and desperately wants to sleep - but can't. Last night she came into our room at nearly midnight in tears, and this is really worrying me now. Can anyone help?

My 5 year old can't get to sleep at the moment, I don't know what has changed. It's heart breaking to see them struggling. I'm trying to change the routine at the moment. She's less traumatised and screams less but it still is taking her well over an hour to get to sleep AND she has just started school all day. I thought she'd be wrecked and fall into bed but I think she's over tired now. Tonight I'm trying Piriton, just to try and break the cycle - not sure that's advised but I'm getting desperate. Poor you. It will pass. I have nights like that myself and once you get a block it's hard to shift. Try changing the focus somehow.

did something happen a couple of weeks ago that could have upset her? Sounds like this started rather suddenly?

I just came on to start a thread like this myself, and would very much welcome any advice - similar sit to original post by loobs2, except my 8 year old son, who similarly has always been a good sleeper in a good routine, has started not being able to sleep because of nightmares/'nasty thoughts', not the compulsive behaviour. He's told me some of the nasty thoughts and they are indeed pretty nasty - visions of his younger brother lying murdered and mutilated etc! I must say my heart goes out to him as I used to suffer from nightmares myself, but what really worries me is that this sort of nasty thought was particularly a sleep problem for me when I was suffering from PND - so I'm starting to be concerned that he might be depressed. Though to be fair he doesn't seem mainly depressed, just tired. Today his teacher rang me at lunchtime because he'd fallen asleep at his desk and wouldn't go out to play, and asked me to come and collect him and see the doctor.
This has been going on for about three weeks now. Nothing happened three weeks ago in our family, though a student at the university where I work did die suddenly and that was quite dramatic in our household as I had to drop everything and go in, so its possible that might have been a trigger. We also have a 9 month old baby, and one of the things he says is that 'its really worrying having to look after two little siblings', so I think he takes the big brother role perhaps rather too seriously! So it might be new baby stress coming out in this way (no problems at all overtly).
But even if one of these things, or both, is the cause, how does that help? I still don't know what to do about it! Suggestions PLEASE!
(Whispers - what is Piriton and should I get some?!)

Can anyone help either of us?!

Hi hermionegrangerat34 - having left a bit of time to see what responses come in, it looks like we're on our own! Piriton is a medicine taken for hayfever, allergies and I think it's an antihistamine, so I guess jannabin is hoping it'll make her little one drowsy - I wouldn't, though, without medical advice. I really sympathise with you, though I am sure the symptoms you describe are quite common - a very good friend of mine's DS, who's now 12, suffered similar nightmares/anxieties when he was your DS's age - it started quite suddenly and he became quite obsessed with watching and listening to news programmes and convincing himself that the terrible things he was hearing about would happen to them. (And I'm talking about Newsround, not the 9p.m. news!)
It was horrible for all the family but was 'just a phase' that passed after a while and he's fine now. Your DS is very unlikely to be depressed, so please don't beat yourself up on account of your own experiences. Having said that, I do think children sense when we are anxious too - so you might well be worrying about each other! As for my DD, her bedtime problems started in the Christmas hols, and she is quite open with me in talking about it but says she doesn't know what has triggered it, and I certainly don't either. She is happy at school and doing really well, she is happy with her friends, and happy and secure at home. I'm at a loss, to be honest!

Hi loobs2! Its a pain, isn't it? And its so heartrending when they're really tired and want to go to sleep but can't. Over the last couple of days we've instituted much more of a young child bedtime routine - bath story hot milk bed - and have also added in a 'go round the family saying one good thing that happened today' routine where we do two or three rounds of that and then a round of 'one thing we're looking forward to tomorrow', which I saw suggested in a book. That seems to have helped a bit - and he certainly likes it and demands it as a non-negotiable part of the routine already. But it hasn't worked every night. He asked the other day for story tapes/relaxing music on CD and we're doing that now (but has to be after younger brother has gone to sleep as they share a room) - but I'm using younger kids stuff, not really babyish nursery rhymes but the winnine the pooh stories, 'stories for six year olds' etc, which are all nice calm stories!
It is a bit better but its very good to have confirmation that its probably just a phase. I must say that was my first reaction, but his teacher rang me a few days ago to say he was really sleepy and told me I should take him to the doctor as he'd never seen anything like it all in his years of teaching, which had me panicking!
Have you tried anything that's helped?

Do you think that loss of routine over the Christmas period triggers this? It always has for DD. She isn't tired at the right times, bedtimes become more erratic, mealtimes maybe less regular etc.

She hasn't actually gone back yet, but I looked at her the other day and she looked so tired. I am hoping that come next week routines will go back into place and sleeping will improve. She is 12.

Hi loobs2, I would be concerned about the fact that your daughter feels that she "has" to do these things rather than doing them because she wants to. This seems to describe obsessive/compulsive behaviour which a good friend of mine struggles with and I think if it continues you should ask a professional for advice as they may be able to help her find ways of coping with these compulsive feelings before they get any worse. I believe it is harder to stop these the longer it goes on but can be managed really well.

I would also recommend an organic product which is available in New Zealand though I am not sure about overseas but there must be something similar, called TRU2U Tart Cherry Juice concentrate which contains natural melatonin which helps boost the bodies natural levels to assist in relaxing and inducing sleep, and allowing for a deeper sleep. We use it in our family for myself and my 5yo for problems sleeping and it has really helped!

Good luck!

Hi loobs2, new to this so hope I am responding right way. Flagged to me as I have OCD, so can sympathise with your situation. Apparently though it is normal for kids to go through a checking/organising phase and usually short-lived. I was always told my issue was feeling out of control or unsafe. Could something have unsettled her at school or with friends? Hopefully it will pass, but if you are worried speak to your GP if it carries on. Best wishes, hope this helps a bit.

Loobs, I think your daughter may be going to bed a little too late. Is it possible that she's over tired? Our dd is 8.7, she gets ready for bed at 7.30, reads till 8 then it's lights out and sleep until 6.45 which in reality is more like 7am. She needs to be ready for school by 7.45 to catch a bus. Currently she is being a real pain in the arse trying child due to over tiredness and lack of routineness. So glad she's back at school tomorrow.

Thanks for all your suggestions. DD had avery bad night last night,just when I'd thought things were improving a bit. I've been going up with her at bedtime and waiting while she organises everything - she likes me being there. She then reads for up to an hour, with me going up to see her every 15 mins, and she tells me if she's needed to get up and 'do' anything.(Usually she hasn't)But last night she got v upset as soon as she went up to bed, in tears, asking me if I thought she was silly doing all the things she feels she has to do. She says her room has to be perfect otherwise she can't get to sleep - but then can't stop telling herself to check things even though she has already; so it's a vicious circle. She herself says she can't relax, she feels 'tense'. Eventually last night I lay down beside her and suggested every time she has the urge to get up she repeats a message to herself - we decided on 'I don't have to do it now, I can do it in the morning'. It was about 11:30 when she got to sleep. I don't think she's going to bed too late - she's on the same schedule as her classmates and even before she started coming back downstairs after bathtime (last summer) she lways took ages to fall asleep.