DD's reception teacher has asked me to see the GP about DD's behaviour

[Rolf]

DD1 is the 3rd of 4 children. She started in Reception in September and is young for the year (July birthday). When she's nice she's wonderful, but when she's not being nice it's as though a shutter has come down over her and it's impossible to get through it.

Two parents have phoned up the school about her. She threw sand in someone's face and there was something about her throwing food (real? toy?). When an adult goes to lead her away from the situation, DD1 lashes out. The teacher said that some children are beginning to edge away from her .

This is all behaviour that we see at home. Her big brothers are 9 and 8, and her little sister is 18 months. I think she finds it difficult having the boys doing stuff she can't do, and having a little sister who gets a lot of attention. I try to give her attention but with all 4, and my DH is away a lot, she can't have me to herself.

She is very dominant at home. She winds the others up horribly, sometimes reducing DS1 to tears with all her shouting and carrying on. She can scream for hours. She wants to be good - sometimes even when she's screaming she is shouting "I thought I was going to be good today". I get down to her level and ask if she's feeling happy when she's shouting and sometimes that gets through to her, but not always. Her behaviour is making family life difficult and is now impacting on school life as well.

Does anyone know what I can expect from the GP? Or have any suggestions for strategies that might help me get through to her?

I expect they will refer you CAMHS (child and adolescent mental health services). Don't panic. I had a problem with DS1 behaviour and my GP referred us. They were very nice and offer strategies to help you manage her behaviour. They may well support the school in managing her behaviour too.

ah bless you Rolf, no experience but she sounds like she's struggling and I don't imagine it's a breeze for you either. She's only little, I'm sure there will be some good advice from GP services.

rolf, no advice but I couldn't read and not post. Bless her saying "i thought I was going to be good today". As huw says, this must be so hard for you all. I hope the GP refers you and you get some support with managing her behaviour.

She has a brain abnormality which the neurologist doesn't think affects her development - in fact, she was discharged from the neurology clinic a couple of years ago. But I guess this will put her on a different "track". The whole thing is especially upsetting for me as it brings back all the worry from when she was an infant. I'm convinced my parenting will come under scrutiny and be found wanting. I realise I need to get over myself and focus on helping DD1 but I hate being in this position.

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Aw Rolf, this is NOT about your mothering, it's about dd having difficulty expressing her feelings. The stuff she says about wanting to be good is so moving. Hope GP (or HV or local children's centre?) can refer you to someone who can offer you strategies to help her.

I don't want to recommend anything as I'm not qualified, but did see one Tanya Byron programme where she suggested giving a little boy a safe space to go to when he felt overwhelmed - not a naughty step but a quiet corner where he could let it out and then calm down. Maybe in the interim you could see if that helped?

That's a good idea. She is very resistant to being sent upstairs or away from the situation. If I want her to leave the room I have to constantly monitor that she has done so, otherwise she'll come back in. So rather than "you're behaviing horibly, go upstairs" it's "please go [wherever it is] and come back when you feel better"? Actually, as I type that, I'm realising that I've tried something like that a few times and when the devil is really behind her she just comes back in and carries on with whatever horrible thing she was doing. She wants to have a fight/upset siblings etc. One of her nursery teachers (who loved her dearly) said that she had never met a child that age who could wind people up so proficiently.

Could you make a cosy corner, with nice cushions she can punch or curl up with or something? So it's an attractive, comforting place to go not a punishment IYKWIM? Her special place to go too when she feels angry.

IIRC in that programme TB was talking about offering the kid something to do while he calmed down - breathing exercises, maybe?

It's probably a half-witted idea anyway, just thought it might possibly be something to try while you sort out more informed approaches.

Don't worry - no one sane is going to have a go at your parenting, but you might have to learn some new mothering techniques as supplied by professionals.

In the meantime, have you tried diverting your energies to prioritising the other three children's needs?

You say your DD is "very dominant" and "wants to upset siblings". If it were me, I would try a different tack and endorse something positive - the needs of the other children not to be bullied, provoked, or hassled.

Set up a separate space to remove DD when she kicks off, which may calm her and will certainly calm the others. You're well capable of keeping her removed from them (she's 4) for 10-15 min at a time.

She sometimes responds well if, when she is screaming "I was going to be good. Am I being good?", I say "yes, you're wonderful" . Although sometimes it does help, I am not sure whether I should say it. My instinct is to say "no, you're not being good right now but let's start again and I bet you can be wonderful" but she wants to be told that she's being good Right Now.

Rolf, I don't think you can tell her she's being good when clearly she isn't, as it will simply reinforce her in the behaviour. Your instinct, I'm sure, is right, though I can see why you would go for the option that makes the noise stop.

It's trite, I know, but are you sure you are making an effort to tell her how good she's being when she actually is, ie for no particular reason?

Sorry posted too soon:

Can you go for something like 'You are good, but this is not good behaviour'?

Ds went through a phase when he was about 4.5 to 5 of being very very angry. Not in reception but only with me. We would have a discussion in the morning about being good that day and what it entailed. He would try and then disintegrate into being completely uncontrollable. When he was in the middle of it there was little that could be done but we spoke about it afterwards to see what we could both do differently (and not wind each other up).

He went through a phase when he started in year 1 including biting other children (one parent fab, one parent a complete and utter nightmare and we haven't spoken since). He also refused to confused to co-operate with his teacher (she said she has never had a child like him). The only way it was resolved was at school being told to stand outside the staffroom at break (the ultimate humiliation) and at home talking through ways to cope. When I collected him from school we would talk about his day and the various trigger points and what he could do to avoid them - saying no, walking away, telling a teacher, deep breath and counting to ten when none of the other options were available. It took a few weeks but ds now is a happy child again and life is a lot easier (no longer dreading getting a call from the school during the day and wondering what ds had done now). I have no idea why he felt so angry about things to the point that would make him lose control.

If he asked (shouted at) me if he was being good when he wasn't I'd answer honestly no but I'm sure you can be good. It is hard when there are other children - ds only has me to wind up and I try to act like a grown up (most of the time!).

If you have already been under the care of a neurologist is it worth going back to them? Or seeing the community paediatrician who could refer you to a child psychologist?

refused to co-operate..

Rolf, I'm sorry have no advice to give, but I did want to give you a bump and support.

Occasionally my DD (4.11) really kicks off, usually predicated by tiredness or hunger. I ask her if she wants to go and sit in the hall and she often takes herself off to have a good old bawl and lie down. It seems to help her and gives me a chance to calm down a bit as well. I recently left my abusive ex and she has just started school so I am really trying to attune into her behaviour.

Another thing that works is if I ask her to draw how she is feeling. Most of the time she draws one of her games or toys not doing what she wants. She seems to really want to do it, as it's a way for her to get the emotion out.

Thanks for the support and advice.

Her teacher wouldn't let her go on a trip today. A few of them were supposed to go to their old nursery to see their Christmas play. I was told this morning of the decision, and support it. DD was told today about it. When I picked her up today she told me that she wasn't allowed to go because she'd been naughty, but couldn't/wouldn't tell me what she'd done. I know the teacher would have given DD a clear explanation of why she wasn't allowed to go, so DD is either withholding information from me, or isn't paying attention.

I think the not remembering is an age thing. Ds is 5.5 and still the same. He cannot seem to remember anything about his day good or bad.

Most children aren't able to tell you what happened today - sometimes it comes out later when you are pottering around doing something else. If you overheard ten conversations in the playground when kids come out, I can promise 9/10 of them the kids would answer 'what did you do today?' with 'nothing'.

I don't think she's necessarily withholding information (although it's true she might be reluctant to tell you what happened), or not paying attention - she might have done at the time. It's just that their brains work differently and they live much more in the present.

My nearly 5 yr old DS sounds a lot like your little girl.

What are the school doing to tackle this? I think the first step is to have a meeting with your DD's teacher and lay out a plan of action that identifies what the problematic behaviour is and what steps the school are going to put in place to try to help your DD to get on better.

Are you worried about your DD's behaviour? What do your instincts tell you?

We got a GP referral to the child development service off the back of conversations with our DS's school about his behaviour. We saw a paediatrician first, who referred us on to CAMHS. They observed DS at school and have referred on again to a SALT (speech and language therapist) because they have concerns about aspects of DS's social communication.

To be honest, though, a huge amount of the onus is on the school to support you and your DD through this. Our DS is on School Action Plus. School Action is basically what happens when the school decide your child needs extra support with aspects of their behaviour / development. For our DS, this means a learning mentor who comes in three times a week and works with DS one-to-one and in smaller groups (all done in class), working on things like expressing emotions, reading other people's emotions, how to share and take turns etc.
School Action Plus is when outside professionals become involved - which would happen if you decide to get a referral.

Once a child is on SA or SA+, they have an IEP (Individual Education Plan), which sets targets for behaviour and spells out how the school are going to help your DD to achieve this.

I'd talk to your DD's teacher about all of this, and if necessary, talk to the Head.

I also think it's very sad that parents are complaining about your DD. She is very young and needs support and guidance, not finger-pointing adults acting like kids themselves

Can I ask what the brain abnormality is, and how you found out about it? There must have been something to alert you to it?

Mrs Mattie that's a very helpful post - thank you. DD's teacher has told me in detail how she talks to DD about making choices, and that if she makes a wrong choice she has to understand that there are consequences. It was the teacher who described it as like a shutter coming down which it's very difficult to get through, which is exactly how I would describe it, too.

The teacher and I have spoken enough for both of us to be confident that we are being consistent. The teacher (and I) has not been able to identify what triggers DD kicking off, nor how to get through to her once she has kicked off. We both agree that we need to try to identify these as it might enable us to help her.

The teacher is very experienced, and used to be the SENCO. She is part on the senior management team and is also a very effective teacher in the classroom. I'm a governor at the school (ironically on the pupil discipline committee!) so I already knew her through that.

The teacher was very discreet in how she related the complaints that have been made, so I don't know what the tone was. But the way it was passed on to me was along the lines of - a child has been very upset at home about something DD did or has been doing, and the mother has spoken to me about it. I haven't had any impression of unreasonable behaviour.

I think that a lot of DDs behaviour is pretty normal, but I think the teacher is pretty bang on target with the areas where it gets difficult - identifying the triggers and getting through to her. She winds people up terribly and although I love her dearly she can be a real cow .

Lou- the brain abnormality is agenesis of the corpus callosum. When I was pregnant with her I was offered frequent scans as my previous baby had died at 19 weeks. At one of the scans my consultant thought she could see a problem and it was confirmed by foetal MRI. DD had many checks as a newborn and during her first year, all of which were clear. The abnormality is linked with a number of conditions but can also exist in isolation. Not a great deal is known about that latter group, as it can only be diagnosed using MRI and obviously most normally-developing individuals won't have an MRI. So we've been advised that she has it in isolation and it doesn't seem to have affected her.

I don't think her behaviour is abnormal. She's quite difficult, quite feisty. I bet lots of 4 year old girls with 2 big brothers are the same way.

Reception is a brand new start for all children and they really do take all year to fit in and sort out the levels of behaviour to be expected ....the history is interesting that siblings and other carers find her quite hard work ....she does sound really "clever " so i am sure school work will occupy her soon as girls do seem to thrive on that stuff early ...just wanted to say do take steps as described by mrs mattie rather than thinking that you and the teacher can solve this however experience or qualified you abd she maybe...you need all that outside view ..and also you will all be wiser as you work through this ..i am sure she will find a place or time when she can explain more about what she feels and why she sparks.

avenginggerbil touched on something earlier and it's something we've had to work hard on with one of ours (who also did the 'I was trying to be good' a lot as if they couldn't control their own behaviour).

We had to reinforce the 'we love you very much and we always do but sometimes we don't like the way you behave but that doesn't mean we don't like you' because I think children, especially at this age, confuse being told off with being not liked/loved, if that makes sense (not that I'm saying this is happening but I wish we'd been clearer about this from the start).

This sort of anger is quite hard to handle and tbh, I still struggle with an angry child many years later. I do think, as edam pointed out, a lot of it is pure frustration and it comes out in ways that are unacceptable so a lot of the work that CAHMS may do with you is helping her deal with her own anger.

Don't feel this is a slight on you. Children can be tricky at the best of times and what you are doing (by getting help) is helping her help herself - and by doing that, you're doing her the biggest favour you could do.

This is so helpful. I agree that I need to take particular care to make sure she knows that it's the behaviour we dislike, not her. I'm also feeling a bit more positive about getting help with her. I've been feeling as though it's a punishment for me - Crap Parent School. I don't always handle her very well, and she really knows how to push my buttons. So thanks