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Behaviour/development

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4 year old dd really getting me down

13 replies

blackmonday · 26/11/2009 20:14

I am really finding my 4 year old dd2 hard work. She has always been really stubborn and has had frequent long lasting and loud tantrums from about the age of 1. She will just decide not to do something and that's that. If it's something she has to do I have to contend with an hour of screaming. I am at my wits end. Tonight it was time for her and her sister's bath. DD2 decides she's not having one. She refused to get undressed and started tantruming. I tried to ignore her and continued to bath her sister, telling her that if she didn't get in she would not be going to a party she was looking forward to. She carried on screaming and would not get in no matter what i said. I put her outside the bathroom as her sister was crying (she doesn't enjoy all the screaming). She was kicking the door and screaming even louder. I'm afraid i ended up smacking her on the bottom (something which i don't do and don't agree with!) i've tried the naughty step (she just won't stay on and screams and it is physically exhausting to keep dragging her back). My other two children have been fine but she is such hard work. I don't know when it will get better but everything's a struggle at the moment. I might add that she is a loving, funny, clever child and I love her with all my heart, i just wish she was a bit easier to look after! any advice would be really gratefully received

OP posts:
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ruddynorah · 26/11/2009 20:19

did she need a bath? why the threat of no party? seems a bit extreme to me.

blackmonday · 26/11/2009 20:22

yes, she did need a bath. i've given in the last couple of nights and i couldn't leave her any longer...she was dirty! it's not just bath it's everything she's asked to do ie, get her coat on in the morning, do her teeth, tidy her toys....everything!

OP posts:
NellyTheElephant · 26/11/2009 21:27

I have a lot of sympathy. My DD1 (also 4) sounds much like this. We used to joke that she had started the terrible twos early, but we never expected the tantrums still to be going when she was rising 5. It's like she is two people. Most of the time she is funny, kind, considerate, clever etc, but then she flips and kicks and hits and screams, bangs doors and throws things. She is BIG now and it is hard for me to physically restrain her from doing damage (to me / the house). Somtimes I am literally at my wits end. Undoubtably the best thing to do is to leave her alone to scream it out as any intervention (reasoning / hugs / shouting) only seem to add fuel to the fire. The problem is once something has set her off it can take well over an hour before the heat of the tantrum and screaming abates and she is left worn out and ready for cuddles (except by that stage you can be certain that the last thing I feel like doing is cuddling her).

I'm not sure what advice to give you as if I knew I would be doing it myself. She is definitely worse when she is tired (but she's always tired - has just started reception and finds it exhausting). I really do try to avoid known flash points and recently have been keeping a note book to record when and why it all kicks off to see if I can identify a pattern. I try and try not to let it get to me and certainly if I can remain calm everything is a million times better. But I can't always do that. I get tired and grumpy too and sometimes I just lose it and find myself shouting and screaming back at her which is a disaster.

I do think that if I can see the situation approaching (i.e. tired, fractious etc) and can get her on my knee for a cuddle and give her a reasonably sugary snack then she might make it through. I know this goes against the grain and certainly like many children she goes crazy after cake / chocolate etc, but there is definitely a point in the afternoon when she is back from school and blood sugar levels are low and she is liable to FLIP, but a well timed bit of fruit and a biscuit can often save the day.

My bath time was pretty much like yours on the screaming front this evening to be honest. Although she was very happy to have her bath and afterwards was on my knee cuddling as I dried her she then wanted me to carry her to her bedroom wrapped in her towel (as I had just done with her 2 yr old sister and baby brother). The thing is I can't carry her any more, she's too heavy, so she went absolutely mad and screamed in the bathroom for half an hour. It's just so silly. OK she was jealous - but we'd been having such a nice time, so happy, so relaxed, cuddling etc and then just like that she went mad. Unfortunately I reacted badly and got pretty cross - I wish I hadn't, it's such a waste of energy. I know she was jealous, but I can't predict where her jealousy might spring from and don't think to watch my every action.

She is such hard work and it is very tough. I long for it to improve and must have read a million books on how to deal with this and although most of what they say makes sense and I try to put it into practice still it goes on and on..... It's just so difficult.

SO what should you have done.... i don't know, maybe the threat should be more immediate so it can be carried out there and then and cause and effect is obvious (e.g. if no bath then no bedtime story). Probably it's best to try and hold off threats altogether to be honest - by the time my DD is in that state she can't really recognise or care about what is being threatened. What always works best for us is if I can let her scream it out and vent the fury, then give her a hug without any particular comment on the tantrum and continue with whatever I wanted her to do in the first place. It's so time consuming though and I don't always have the patience. You say you tried to ignore her - but you didn't ignore her. The trick if you can manage it is really and truly to ignore her, it definitely is the best thing.

My mantra (which I try and remind myself of when I'm getting more and more angry and frustrated) is 'she needs your love most when she deserves it least'

paranoidmum · 26/11/2009 22:42

Had the same too this evening - including exactly the same threats!!! So I must also be totally over-reacting.... Tut tut.

I agree totally with Nelly's Mantra - but not only when they need love most they deserve it least, but it's also when you are at your most tired and least patient!

My trick (when I can remember!) is to sing a silly song, to any tune that comes into your head. Worked this evening - calmed me down, as well as DS & DD. Make it up as you go along, and make up rhymes too - concentrates the mind even more & it really does cut through everyone's tension. DS had to stop screaming to hear what I was singing. Soon had them both laughing, just over a silly song, that luckily no-one else heard.

Good luck blackmonday for same time tomorrow ....

blackmonday · 27/11/2009 19:14

thanks so much for your messages. it does help to know other people are having similar problems and it's not just because of my parenting. I felt awful last night after she'd gone to bed as i knew i'd handled the situation so badly. I will try so hard to do as you've suggested. I really like the silly song idea and will be giving that a go. Might leave bathtime tonight. I've had a very hard day at work and it's saturday tomorrow so she can have one then..and yes, she did get to go to the party!

OP posts:
choufleur · 27/11/2009 19:20

sorry to sound harsh but if you said no party (even if with hindsight it might have been a bit ott) then you're reinforcing that her having a screaming tantrum is ok because she still gets to do something that you have said she can't.

saggers · 15/12/2009 19:01

Nelly - this could be my DD2 that you're talking about. Reassuring to know I'm not the only one.

Adair · 15/12/2009 19:14

I agree with choufleur, your threat/consequence was FAR too big and you had no intention of carrying it out. Try really basic, simple consequences that you CAN (and do) carry out so she knows you mean what you say - eg 'either you get in the bath yourself, or I will put you in'. And do it.

Agree that lots of tantrums need distraction and PICK HER UP/sit next to her. It grounds them honest, am constantly trying to tell dh this. If you pick dd up and talk to her, it gives her that reassurance she needs while also calming her (and stopping the behaviour). Dd is 3.5 and getting worse tantrum-wise. Def what works is picking her up and then going 'OH!!! look at the funny.. '. THen, you need to have a bath so are you going to get in, or is mummy going to put you in? Where's your flannel? etc etc;

PS try not to feel terrible though, we all handle things badly sometimes, as we are human not robots. It's all an experiment, isn't it? what works with your dd - we learn eventually (and then they change)

spursmummy · 15/12/2009 21:28

blackmonday and nelly, you've just described my 2.9 year old DD. I love her to bits, but she's really testing me at the moment and her tantrums got worse and more frequent more or less from the point at which the clocks went back. She's also growing loads and learning lots and I think it's wearing her out. I've tried both the calm approach and the shouting approach (I'm human!) and neither work when she is in full meltdown, all I can do is put her in her room (safest place for her to be) and let her scream it out. If I spot it coming early enough I can distract her with talking socks/flannels/cushions depending on where we are but it's not usually possible. I hope things get better for us all soon!!

CJsWhiteHouseXmasParty · 17/12/2009 23:47

Just wanted to say I'm in the same situation - DD is 4 and a nightmare, especially at bedtime. (During the day she is charming, funny, bright, very obedient and focused at school, might have the odd tantrum but it's fairly easy to deal with - I usually ignore it and she stops.) I am now beyond my wits' end.

Tonight it took me three hours to get her to bed. She jumps straight out and starts dancing around the room, laughing at me - almost saying 'what are you going to do about it?'

I've tried ignoring, threatening, star charts, shouting, putting her back to bed, bribery, praising the good behaviour, everything I can think of. Lots of people and books said just ignore the bad behaviour, and when she realises she's not getting a reaction she'll stop. So tonight, probably foolishly, I decided to go downstairs and get on with tidying up and making my supper. She followed me down and played for an hour. When she talked to me I ignored her, and she said 'oh, is there something wrong with your tongue, can't you speak?'

I just can't seem to find anything that works with any consistency. I am going mad. Sorry, OP, I don't have advice as I am clearly getting it horribly wrong, but I wanted to let you know that you're not alone. I feel utterly hopeless and desperate. The only thing I did right tonight (I think) is that I managed not to shout or lose my temper. But it still feels like she got the better of me.

I love her to pieces.

EmilyStrange · 18/12/2009 00:15

I have found 4 to be a tricky age, just been through a tough time with my ds but (touching wood) I think he is beginnning to come out of it just as my ds2 is entering it. Its very tricky and wearing. Try to think of immediate repurcussions (easier said I know) and always follow through on them. By the way let me know if you think of any good ones. The theory is always easier than the practice. But although this has been going on a while, it is a phase repeat several times. Also try to stick to one thing. I also did reward charts, naughty step and many others but I think this gets confusing for evey=ryone. Think of one simple strategy and stick with it.

Like others have said you are not alone but 4 is a period of advanced development academically, physically and socially and the emotional development can lag behind some what.

GrumpyWhenWoken · 18/12/2009 00:33

You're not alone Blackmonday, my 4 yr old likes to be a baby one minute and big boy the next, it's a difficult transition I think.

Just be consistent, don't give in to the trantrums, it's getting better for us.

Oh, and I bought advent calendars in Nov for rewards (once school uniform on, teeth cleaned, breakfast eaten, etc) works a treat - and I've got some for January too!!

Vintagepommery · 18/12/2009 09:49

Blackmonday - you do have my sympathy - hour long tantrums are tough. My DD1 used to have them between the ages of 2 and 3.

The only thing I found worked was ignoring and offering a hug once she looked like she was calming down.

I think with the bath situation once you've made the threat of no party then you have to stick to it.

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