UP parents- how would you deal with this?

[thisisyesterday]

DS1 is driving me crazy.
He is coming up for 5 (beg. feb) and his behaviour is, quite frankly, appalling.
I've been putting it down to his age for far too long and have now come to the conclusion that there is either something wrong with him or that it's my fault for parenting him dreadfully.

He just cannot control himself at all. I feel like at this age he really ought to know that it's not ok to push his brother down the stairs, to push him off the sofa, to kick him, to headbutt dp.
if he gets told off for anything he just screams and spits at us. he'll take himself off sobbing that everyoen hates him and that we're all horrid.

I can keep my patience with him for so long and then i just snap.
I've taken to putting him in his room for what is effectively a time out, which I absolutely HATE. I know it isn't the right thing for him, but I don't know what else to do because right after telling him not to hurt his brother, and having a chat about how we don't hit etc, he'll be at it again.

he has been like it at school as well, and his teacher is concerned enough to be getting the senco in after christmas if he hasn't improved :-(

i just don't know how to deal with him at home.
he IS better, a bit, if i can keep my cool, keep re-iterating that we don't hurt people, and if I spend plenty of time with him. dp and I also try and model the behaviour we want to see, and point out better ways of dealing with anger.
but that doesn't help me with the times when he is in a rage and nothing works!!!

I find that learning empathy is helped by explainations.

My three year old has hurt his brother on occasions. I tell him "Look, your brother is crying because you hurt him. You made him cry. You must not do that."

I try not to tell my children not to be angry. The anger itself is not the problem, it's the way it is expressed. My three-year-old will throw himself on the floor and cry and cry, and won't let me touch him. I state that his is cross and ask if I can help. I offer the usual: food, water, potty, cuddle, telly.

You have a responsibility to protect your younger son. Even with plenty of supervision and seperation when necessary, our older son occasionally lashes out at his brother. He is getting better though and expresses himself quite well, by pulling a cross face or growling, rather than pushing or kicking.

In a calm moment, perhaps you could talk about how other people feel, such as characters in a book or tv show.

I don't know if any of this will help.
I would avoid the timeout. If you need to seperate for a few minutes, can you take yourself and the younger boy off to another room and leave your 5 year old where he is?

Likewise if your temper is rising, demonstrate how to deal with it well but leaving the room and saying you feel stressed or angry, even if it's only to yourself.

Good luck.

yeah we do all that. when he is calm he seems to understand, and i know that at his age he is still struggling with impulse control.
we've talked abotut things he can do when he is angry that are ok, like stamping his feet, or hitting a pillow (if he feels he must hit something), or trying to talk to us about how cross he is instead of lashing out
but we just haven't seen any real improvement.
I just figured that he would start growing out of it by now?

I think you're doing all the right things, just keep doing them. My nephew is 4 (5 in June), and he's an absolute nightmare with other children. Is your ds quite articulate? I have some fairly meaningful conversations with dn, and 5 mins later he's kicking me or his mum. 4 is still baby really. What has his teacher said?

I only know a little about UP, but my understanding is that while "punishment" per se isn't encouraged, it is entirely appropriate to use natural consequences.

So a natural consequence of pushing his brother off the sofa might be that you ds wouldn't be allowed on the sofa (and his brother would be) for the next half hour because "at this moment it is seems hard for you to sit on the sofa calmly" (or something like this).

A natural consequence of headbutting your partner in anger or spitting and screaming might be him going to his room (or a designated place) to calm down. But then you will have to show him, when he is calm, how to calm down in his room. I don't see this as time out. I think it is a very valid skill to be learning. Also, there really is no point expecting to have a conversation with your ds when he is angry because he is physiologically so aroused that he won't be able to take on board what you are saying. It is also completely normal to feel really sad and upset after an angry outburst (this is a physiological response to the adrenaline rush) and this might explain your ds crying and saying everyone hates him.

A natural consequence of your ds pushing his brother downstairs is that you are very cross with him and tell him so very fiercely.

FWIW, I think children do need clear boundaries in order for them to feel secure and happy. A child who spits and screams when told off is likely to find school difficult because this kind of behaviour may alienate teachers and other kids. As you appreciate, it's therefore going to be really important to find a way of helping him to control his impulses.

I think the key is that you need to explicitly state what behaviour you expect (e.g. it's important for your and your ds to be kind to each other / keep your hands and feet to yourself etc). As you are doing, you need to explain why it is important. But you also need to have natural consequences that are fairly immediate. Telling a five year old who has difficulty controlling their impulses that he won't have friends 5 years down the line if he hits / kicks etc is unlikely to be as successful as an immediate natural consequence e.g. you can't share the lego with your brother without fighting, therefore we are going to put the lego away for the morning. But get the lego out again later in the day so he has an opportunity to practise sharing again.

baskingseals, yes he is very articulate (a bit too articulate sometimes! lol)

his teacher says he is quick to anger, and gets very cross if things don't happen the way he thinks they are going to/ought to
he can be fairly agressive- at school this has only been towards adults, not other children, but at home it's everyone although he will be physically aggressive towards his brother and it's more verbal towards me

she feels as I do that it is something that he ought to have more control over by now, but equally that maybe it's being antagonised by the arrival of a new sibling in June, and starting school, hence waiting til the end of term before we get senco or anyone involved.

I worry so much that the way I am parenting has caused this. I truly believe that UP is the way to go, but when I see him behaving the way he does sometimes it's hard to believe that.

i'm also in a quandary now where he is acting up when we are out. for example if he is being particularly naughty at soft play or something then i would normally have given him some chances to stop, and then taken him out. But he has a 2yr old brother, and taking one means taking both.
so how do i deal with behaviour without making his little brother suffer too?

neolara, i think that natural consequences are also not really UP. I know that Alfie Kohn says in Unconditional Parenting that it isn't something he considers useful or necessary.
that said, I do use them as a precursor to time out atm, because like I say I am really at a loss as to what to do with him!!

he has no rules it sounds like. No rules, no eonforcement and too much attention when he misbehaves,
iw ould start again with easy rules and sanctions

TIY - are you still there? I just wanted to say that I'm sorry that you're struggling. I've read many of your posts on UP and think you sound like a lovely and thoughtful mum. I think it's unfair so say that your DS has no rules - of course he has rules, you clearly have rules about not hitting etc etc and you are constantly re-iterating them. The problem is more one of how to deal with the fact that he is ignoring the rules!

FWIW I bet there are loads of kids who break the rules and struggle with controlling impulses and if you were doling out the punishments and bribery left right and centre you'd get a lot more sympathy.

I have a dd who is your son's age, and a new baby born around the same time as yours (but not the toddler in between) and I found that dd's behaviour deteriorated sharply after the baby was born. We had pretty much avoided any bad behaviour until then, so I found myself at a bit of a loss as to how to deal with it. I don't think I found any brilliant solutions and I found UP a bit hard to practise . But I definitely found that avoiding the situations was the best approach and, after a while, I figured out that the best way of avoiding them was lots of fresh air, lots of physical activities (swimming etc) and having playdates etc. In other words, it seemed that keeping dd cooped up with me and the baby was the real trigger point. I mention this in case it might be remotely helpful, although it sounds like you are trying hard already to give him quality time/attention.

In your shoes, I do think I'd explore the 'natural consequences' route and see if it helps - sounds like neolara has got some good suggestions.

Do keep posting about it - I'm sure lots of others have been and will be in the same boat.

Have you done the wish fulfillment thing? Is his teacher approachable enough to suggest that she could use it too?
Do you follow his lead at all? What normally sets him off?
The other thing I find helpful to remember is anger is a feeling, and all feelings are valid, even or especially negative ones. It doesn't reflect on your parenting. Try not to tense up or take it personally when he kicks off, just carry on as usual. If you can't handle it, you leave the room, and you can tell him why if you like. It's okay to be angry, it's not the end of the world, even if it feels like it sometimes. Obviously he can thump cushions, shout and scream, but he CANNOT hurt anyone, that's not fair on him or anyone else.

Laughter is another way to express feelings - lots of tickle fights is good, I think. Also like nomoresleep said, lots of exercise.

It's interesting that he seems to be crosser with adults rather than children. How2 much responsibility does he have? Does he see himself as quite grown-up? Does he play with his brothers or regard them as mere babies? Does he have playdates with children his own age?

Will think more, got to go now.

what is the wish fulfillment thing BS? (i feel i ought to know that lol)

to be honest i think the trigger point was the arrival of ds2, 2 years ago. ds1 simply was not ready for a sibling (he was 2yrs 9 months then) and has resented him ever since. he used to ask me over and over if we could take the baby back, and it's like he just can't get over that still and accept that actually, ds2 is rather nice now!
he dotes on ds3 and can't do enough for him lol
although that of course doesn't mean he hasn't been affected by his arrival or that it hasn't meant a lot of upheaval in some ways.

we do try and get out and about, although we have to be careful with this too!
at the moment he is tired from school, so we tend not to go out in the afternoons too much. the little ones both have a sleep in the afternoon though, so i try and use that time to play with ds1 and we do whatever he wants to do. it sometimes seems though that the more time i spend with him on his own the harder he finds the transition back to it being all 3 of them. so he'll be absolutely lovely and then as soon as one of the others wakes up he's back to being violent and shouty and everything and unfortunately it's a transition that i can't do anything to prepare him for i don't think

he also isn't good in very noisy public places. he hates if there is a lot of background noise, so struggles sometimes in soft play and stuff like that, although i have learnt to spot when he is getting distressed and atm I make him come and sit with me and have a drink and snack to calm him down, otherwise he'll start getting quite upset which usually ends with aggressive behaviour.

he seems in a real in-between stage at the moment. he can come across as well beyond his years. he is very articulate and will happily hold a conversation with an adult for ages.
he'll play with ds2, but gets cross if ds2 doesn't understand what he wants him to do, or if he wants to do things differently. he's happiest playing by himself tbh.
that said he does have friends at school and other children appear to really like him. at nursery they said he was very popular, but didn't like it if more than a couple of people were playing with him at any time

we've had a couple of playdates this term, and he has a few other friends who we know outside of school who we meet up with now and then as wll

Wish fulfillment is when they say 'mum can we send him back' and you say 'okay let's send him back to babyland', basically you allow them to express what they want, even if it's patently impossible. Could be helpful for school maybe as there are things he has to do even if he doesn't want to, usually
by talking what has to be done just happens, eg 'I don't want to put my shoes on', 'yes, wouldn't it be nice if we lived on a tropical island and nobody wore shoes....', while doing up a velcro strap. Does work. The background noise thing is ringing a few bells for me. Does he smell things? Is he quite sensitive to touch ? Is his vocabulary quite wide-ranging?

Will think more

ahhh yes, we do that a lot with him as he responds really well to it actually, and i will def mention it to his teacher.
he also has a sticker chart at school which he now LOVES and it's the only reason he wants to go to school lol

"Does he smell things? Is he quite sensitive to touch ? Is his vocabulary quite wide-ranging?"

yes, yes and yes!

I think he's highly sensitive to sensory input, and his meltdowns are an expression of his frustrations at trying to process and make sense of the world. That's why he can play with you but not his little brother, it's not his brother himself that's the problem, it's the demands that he makes on ds1 - it's simply too much for him.

Does he still do half days?

Don't bother with soft play, your 2yo will NOT suffer because of it. The most exciting thing that happens in my 2yo's day is if I happen to find a bottle of bubble mixture - honestly. He's 2 - all he really needs is you.

What about getting a tropical fish tank, or some lava lamps or some prisms? Something relaxing for ds1 to chill to when it all gets too much.

Keep reassuring him and validating his feelings, but still not allowing him to hurt others.

Many children are totally overwrought by reception. My DS1 isn't physically aggressive, but has been having spectacular tantrums. The other mums and I were comparing notes today at the school gates and our children are:

biting
hitting
tantrumming
having constant poo/wee accidents
not eating
eating but refusing to use cutlery

etc etc

I do think that when you UP (as I try to do) it is harder for children at the beginning of school - because most schools use reward systems/punishments that can be bewildering if you haven't used them at home. I don't think this is an argument against UPing, but I think that you and the teacher need to make allowances. In my view, UP is worth it in the long run, but there are consequences in the early school years including less urge to conform, 'worse' behaviour as you don't reward your child for 'being good', and less need to 'perform' at school in terms of producing beautifully presented work and being top of the tick charts.

The confusion at school may be making him push boundaries at home as he tries to reconcile the different styles of discipline. I'm sure that all this will settle down in time as your DS matures and gets the hang of school. In the mean time, let the teacher get the SENCO involved if she thinks he needs extra support in the class room. The SENCO might have some good ideas. At home, I'd be patient, and just talk through the incidents sympathetically and try to teach him strategies to mitigate his anger. I'm trying to get DS1 (4.3) to count to 3 and then decide if he really wants to hit his brother (he never hits him after counting by the way!)

Good luck, and keep us posted.

think you might be right baskingseals.
not that long ago i was talking to dp and said it seemed like a lot of his problems were because he just can't cope if there is a lot going on at once (particularly noise-wise) as he seems unable to process it all and he needs it to stop while he just works through it and then he is fine again

this was after an occasion when we had people over and he ended up standing in the middle of the room with his hands over hius ears scremaing for everyone to stop talking.

i've had some success in getting him to take himself up to his room if he thinks it's getting too noisy or if it's upsetting him, so that he can have some quiet time.
I don';t make him do it, but I suggested it to him and then when we had friends over the next time and i saw him beginning to get a bit stressed i just mentioned it and he took grandpa upstairs to play lego and disaster was averted!
So, I guess part of it is teaching him how to deal with the way he feels and ways of coping with it all

interestingly a fish tank is arriving for christmas lol

thanks too acebaby for your thoughts,, i think you're probably right and it's a combination of noise-levels etc stressing him out and all the things you mention which are normal starting school things and adding extra stress to him
i too am hoping the senco will come up with some ways of working with him to make him happier at school.

i wonder if they'd be open to the idea of a quiet corner or something like that where they could suggest he goes and sits and reads or something if he is getting angry?

i think he may be open to the counting thing too, will try that in a bit!

Really hope things work out for you all.