Non-sleeping 11 year old?

[nighbynight]

Ds has never been a good sleeper, and has never slept more than 10 hours per night. But in the last year, he has started taking it to extremes.

Last year, he had an awful teacher who bullied him from the start of teh school year until I managed to get him into another parallel class. During the time he was with this teacher, he was hugely stressed, lost all interest in everything, became depressed, and started going to bed very late, I mean around midnight or later.

This year, he has a very nice teacher, who is aware of his problems, and is giving a lot of support.

But ds is still going to bed much too late. For example, now it's 10.52 here, and it is past my bedtime. Ds has to get up at 7 am tomorrow. I have already switched off his light twice, and I am pretty sure that he has switched it on again, and is not sleeping. We have tried everything - story dvds, checking regularly and switching the light out, reading a book before switching teh light out, etc. But I still keep on hearing the sound of his stupid little heels banging on teh floor as he thinks of yet another reason to jump out of bed and roam around the house, or play with his stuff.
He is the same however much we have done during the day.

I have loads to do in teh evenings, bills to pay, letters to write, the dishwasher to empty, school stuff to prepare etc. - and I havent even started it, becuase I am frazzled from the 2 hour bedtime, that even now, still isn't over. Also, I would like to have some time to myself in the evening, instead of spending all night trying to get him to sleep!

I am convinced that he would do better in the school if he would sleep more, as he must be in a permanently sleep-deprived state.
does anyone have any helpful suggestions?

(and please dont bother if it is "its your fault because you dont take him to the park enough" which was the helpful contribution last time I asked for advice on mn. Like an 11 year old wants to go to the flaming park, even if it were possible.)

no medication - another good guess down teh drain!
I think it is a combination of personal metabolism + pre puberty + worrying about his father and the school.
Wish I could handle it better though.

I would just send him off to bed. Tell him that he can read or play, but he is to stay in his room and then get on with what you want to do. You can't make him sleep. It is getting him a lot of attention and giving you a lot of stress. If he feels he has more control over when he goes to sleep he might get off earlier.

My DD is same (aged 12)
Finally falls asleep about 11.30/12am.

This is because she finds it hard to switch off her brain (her words) and things keep whizzing round her head.

She goes to bed at 9pm and must stay there.I need time to relax myself.
We have a deal: I say she can read til she falls asleep. She listens to her ipod too.
She is not allowed to play on PC after 8pm as that makes her insomnia worse.

Oh and my dds love their playmobil too. but they dont mention it to their friends much

how precisely would you send him off to bed, picesmoon?
when you say "its bed time" and he lies on the floor. Or goes from room to room around the house annoying his siblings and distracting them from going to bed?

I have used pocket money fines in the past, but his brain works like this: I dont mind losing 1/7 of my pocket money. And if I lose all of it, then I can go to bed as late as I like, because Ive got nothing left to lose.

Removing the Playmobil might be more effective, but I dont have a locked room to put it in. And I cant afford to provoke the sort of scenes where he kicks the door at 10 pm, as I would have the neighbours straight round complaining.

He has to WANT to cooperatate, which he doesnt at the moment. I have talked a lot about staying in his room, and this morning, when he was tired and needed a lift to get to school on time, he himself suggested that the Schlaftee might help him to esstablish an evening routine. So we are going to try the herbal teas.

goldyfish, I think that playing with playmobil is also a pretty effective way of keeping the brain active, so I tend to discourage that as well, what do you think?. Def no computing, I agree. I would settle for staying in bed reading if only he would! and it would be so good for his englisha nd german skills!!

Agree with what piscesmoon said: settle for what he can control (staying in his room).
You can't command someone to go to sleep. It may also be worth pointing out to him that just lying comfortably in bed is a form of rest too: I used to suffer horribly from insomnia stress until my mother pointed out this simple fact.

My ds1 sometimes has trouble getting to sleep and gets up. Sometimes in tears because he can't sleep. I realise this is a bit different, but I give him a drop of Bach rescue remedy (I imagine it's a total placebo) and that makes him go back to bed calmly. I do the same for nightmares with the little ones.

Missed you last post, nightbynight. It sounds as if you are avoiding conflict for fear of upsetting the neighbours. This sounds a bit worrying as it seems to point at deeper problems than just the bedtime. If he knows that this is what is going on, then it might be unsettling for him. I think in some ways they are still quite little at this age, and need the reassurance of the big wise adult who will enforce the rule. But at the same time, I understand that it must be very difficult for you, given his past and you may well need to go gently.

It is my house nighbynight and I make the rules!
I would sit down, calmly, and explain that as the mother I give time to him all day and the evening in my time and I want a couple of hours of peace and quiet. I would agree a time that he goes to his room, I would say that it is up to him what he does there (it is limited in our case because I don't have TVs in bedrooms)and he doesn't have to sleep, but he stays in his room unless he wants to go to the loo. I make sure he takes a glass of water with him.
I admit that it is difficult if things are completely out of hand at 11yrs, but I made it clear that it was bed time and the end of the day as soon as they got to the stage of climbing out of the cot.
I think that since it has got out of hand I would just go on strike-tell him that since I didn't get time to myself, I would be taking it when I would normally do things for him and calmly read a book instead of cooking a meal. He needs the message that you are a person with rights to time to call your own. It is perfectly reasonable that he goes to his room at a certain time but not reasonable that he should sleep when told to.

Choose a time together-ask him what seems reasonable-if it is unreasonable, negotiate.

Have you thought of having a word with the nieghbours and asking them to cut a bit of slack on the noise front to a few days?

Then get tough. The way he's behaving is unacceptable and unfair to everyone - particularly you.

And don't drive him to school - let him be late and take the consequences.

Re the neighbours - they are horrible bullies. Earlier this year, they had an impromptu kangaroo court of all the families in teh development at a meeting, to which I was called without warning at the last minute, without being told what it was for. It was for the purpose of shouting at me and another mother, saying that the place was perfect until our children came, and a lot of very unpleasant stuff.
Basically, it boils down to the fact that one teenager is having troubles at school and requires absolute quiet in teh afternoons to study, and another man likes to work on his balcony. Unfortunately, there is a playground in teh central courtyard, and our children play there in the afternoons.
I have had them ringing the doorbell to shout at me at all hours of the day and evening. We are the social lepers of the development, as I am a single parent with 4 children and a violent ex, so clearly beyond the pale.
Anyway.

Bach rescue remedies is a good idea - I might try that. Wonderful placebo if nothing else, I should think.

pices, when we were little, we accepted our parents discipline. My own children never have. Eg, they would never sit on the naughty step, they just bounced up again. They are incredibly strong-willed and rebellious, which they get from their fathers side, because nobody in my family is like that!
My only chance of discipline, is to get their cooperation. I have tried negotiating bedtime, but if he refuses to stick to the negotiated time, then I am back in the same situation.

Not every night is as bad as last night. Its now 10 pm, and he is just off. But I think he is sickening for something, as everyone else is laid low with a bug, and he now has a headache.

I will go forward with a combination of persuasion & rescue remedy/herbal tea, and hope that this will eventually work on the wilder nights, as well as the quieter ones.

I have already told him that there are other 11 year olds who also cant sleep (the power of mn!), and that they stay in their beds reading, and this appeared to make an impression.

Good.
he is too old for this behaviour and you deserve your peace and quiet.

Re playmobil, I think its actually a really good thing for them to act out their troubles espec if theres a bit of unpleasant history he might be brooding over. particularly helpful for you to listen at the door at times and hear his thought processes while he plays.

I acknowledged dd. That helped. The fact that I sat down and said I do understand you have a sleep issue. I got the school nurse involved, she came round and had meetings with dd and I. That made dd feel that I was taking her seriously. The Nurse helped us discuss guidelines and strategies for sleep.

Sorry your neighbours are bullies. Thats not nice for you. Do go to school nurse though. Theres a lot they could help with.

I had problems with DD sleeping at that age, she would still be wide awake at midnight, although we didn't have any behaviour problems other than getting up in the morning.

What I have discovered since is the preteens actually only need about 8 hours sleep and they are starting to adjust their sleep pattern and the melatonin which makes them sleepy doesn't start until later.

Once they older they need a lot more sleep again.

To be honest I would just make sure he goes to bed a set time, then leave hime to play with his playmobile etc

DD 12 is now usually asleep by 9.30 now but at the age 10/11 it was midnight on many days.

Agree with others about just concentating on getting him in his room, rather than asleep - i.e. lead the horse to water - but up to him if he'll drink!

Allow him to have his light on if he wants it. Reward the good behaviour (i.e. staying in his room) by giving him extra pocket money, rather than punishing the bad behaviour by withdrawing pocket money. As you say after a few days this leaves you without a punishment so it isn't really working as a strategy.

Suggest some story tapes or music - not to relax him, but to give him an incentive to stay in his room.

What's his behaviour like the restof the time? It sounds like it isn't just bedtime that's the issue? Or is it?

I know it's hard to get some people to talk about things, but since he had a horrible experience with his teacher (hiss, boo) and is also perhaps processing his experiences with his father, have you considered counseling for him? My 11 yo DD is a non-sleeper too, and there's an abusive ex in the picture. I think age 11-12 is a tough time for DCs to sort out this kind of experience on their own, plus all the peer stuff and pre pubescent changes that are going on. Anxiety within themselves and in the environment is hard for them to deal with. I have reassured my DD that resting is as good as sleeping, and she rests for a good few hours...

She also helps out with the family evening routine, clearing the table, helping load the dishwasher, de-crumbing the table, making sure she has all her school things ready for the morning, including her packed lunch, which she makes, and her clothes set out, even shoes and socks. These are her own responsibilities. She can control how the morning goes, and worry less about it, by attending to things in the evening. Maybe your DS could take on more responsibility in the household, and feel less like a child, then behave a bit more co-operatively at bedtime.

Your neighbours sound truly horrible. Very sad for you and the other vilified parent.

My ds1 went to an all boys school which was amazing. The headmaster spoke to the parents and one thing he said has always stayed with me. "If we get enough sleep, we can cope with almost anything the day has to throw at us". It's so true. Do you remember what it was like having a new born? I ached for sleep and every waking hour was a real effort. He must get more sleep. This may sound a bit 'young' for an 11yo, but my son is 12 and we have had to adopt a routine of turning off his TV/DS etc at 8.00pm, warm bath and pj's on followed by a hot chocolate and reading only. I've even used lavender oil on his pillow or massaged on his forehead/back to help him go off. His mind is so active and having screen stimulation before bed proved a nightmare for us. Good luck

Oh and by the way ... if my neighbours shouted at me, I would make a formal complaint to the police of harassment and intimidation then threaten them with an ASBO proceeding.

Thank you so much to everyone who has posted so far. It really does help to hear about other people's experiences and suggestions.

Lavender oil is another thing I will try. It will make him feel cherished, perhaps

martha, I feel that the abusive ex thing is very important. My children grew up in an environment where everything was controlled by violence, and I, their mother, was constantly insulted and abused.
Then suddenly, I was the one making the rules, and they had to respond to other pressures than just fear of violence.

I have been down at the police station far more than I would like already, over ex (police have been marvellous). Neighbour disputes are common in Bavaria, because some people have the most ridiculous expectations, so I suspect the police would just tell me to sort it out.
I did write the house management a scorcher of a letter, and the next time I saw the houise manager, he looked embarrassed and disappeared out of my sight as fast as he could.

Last night with ds went as follows:
10 pm: disappear up to bed
10:40: come down saying he cant sleep
I make relaxing herbal tea, and ds settles in for a chat.
10:55: I send him upstairs again, and he sleeps. Another blasted 11 pm night!

I think we have made a bit of progress: he agrees in principle on the need to stay in his room. Meanwhile I am going to stock up on rescue remedy and lavender oil, for when he lapses.

It would be wonderful to think that in a few years he will be a teenager sleeping 12 hours a night!

Maybe I should have a word with ds's wonderful teacher behind his back, and ask him to give the class a pep talk about getting enough sleep! ds would probably believe everythign he says

Sorry for repeated posts, my brain is going like anything as I am reading the posts again.

He has story tapes and music.
I think he would respond well to extra responsibility, and it might stop him from worrying.

I sent all the children for a week camping at a riding stables in the mountains in the summer, it did seem to do them good.

What you mentioned about responding to different ways of motivating them (not violence or threats) is so true. There was no way I could ever out-shout my ex (even if I wanted to go that route) or out-hit him and they only seemed to respond to him as a result. Things have settled down a lot since all that calmed down and we have found better ways of doing things. Took a lot of persistence and frustration on my part and the DCs seemed a bit lost in the meantime and inclined to test me.

It just occurs to me that my older DS went through a little time of anxiety a good few years back when he was about 4 and the house was burglarised; I found he was up late in his room looking out the window for robbers, very cautious about doors being locked, windows closed at night. He brought a little sword to bed with him. Maybe your DS has fears about his father or the nasty neighbours that are keeping him awake? Boys can be territorial about their 'turf', and they have strong protective instincts where their mothers and siblings are concerned.

Oh bless him. Taking a sword to bed sounds so like my sons as well. Being burgled must have been a horrible experience for you all.
Yes, I think the territorial/responsibility thing is an added stress. The house is rented, it doesn't belong to us, and we aren't from this area. Ds has recently opened up about how much violence he witnessed - when I thought he was too young to realise .
Ds is a very protecting sort of boy, and worries about his father. Whereas I, the mother am now the breadwinner as well as the mum - what is left for ds as a boy to copy? Thats why I am particularly pleased that he has a man teacher this year.

Our progress so far tonight was:
8:30 - ds announces that he wants to catch up on sleep and disappears upstairs with cup of relaxing herbal tea.
9:00 - he brings the cup down again
9:25 - miracles will never cease. His light is off. He must be sickening for something.

9:30 "I forgot to brush my teeth, mummy" suppress smile "Brush them now and go straight back to bed, ds"

It's so saddening that DCs are aware of what's going on, even if you think they're just children and couldn't know about it. It's fantastic for your DS to feel safe enough to start talking a bit about what he saw, very brave of him. And brave of you too, to listen, because it's probably not pleasant stuff that's coming up. Hope he's not really sickening .