My 5 year behaves like a teenager - wilful, rude and aggressive. Please help

[socrosstonight]

My five year old and I have locked horns in a terrifying way tonight. She has always been quite difficult but in the past year I have started to find her more and more objectionable. She is often sarcastic- she sort of mimics what people are saying in a stupid voice designed to make the speaker feel stupid. And if she doesn't get her own way she makes a huge drama out of it, often screaming and hitting me or whoever is standing in the way of what she wants. I always put her on the stairs for violence (most of which is directed towards her little brother but sometimes at me) and never give in to her demands. Tonight she hit me when I asked her to come and let me dry her hair and I put her on the stairs as I always do. When she came off I told her that I wasn't happy with her behaviour and she did the voice mimicking thing. I then told her that I was sick of her backchat and she wasn't having a story tonight as a result. She started apologising and pleading and when she realised that I meant it she said things like 'I hate you!' I did what I have always had to do when I lock horns with her - sit outside her room and just keep putting her to bed when she comes out to beg me to change my mind. Every time she realises I'm sticking to my guns she changes tack and says ever more nasty things. My husband is doing a shift outside at the moment and she has lost several toys to the shelf. But has anyone got some better advice on how to tackle this? TBH I'm at my wits end - I expected to have to deal with these sorts of scenes when she was a teenager but she's only 5 (nearly six) Is this normal?

I think it was my disposition. Perhaps angry is the wrong word - intense, thoughtful, sensitive, passionate, tendency to dwell on things ... - all traits that DS1 shares. I do think that I did not feel very listened to, and this made it worse, but it's a bit of chicken and egg situation (BTW, my parents were very loving, but mum found anger hard to deal with for other reasons)

How old is his brother ? DS1 was really very thrown by having a new brother (when he was 2.5). Depending on the stage brother is at, DD may be feeling hard done by (not because of anything you have done, but because your DS is maybe still at a cute stage, or is annoying and invades her space, etc)

I really know how hard it is to come back from these incidents, and not feel resentful. The worst thing I ever did while in the middle of one was to rip up one of DS1s pictures (Absolutely terrible behaviour ). Of course I apologised, but it made me realise that I was taking it all so personally, when it's about them developing and needing someone to butt up against. They do it with us because they know we love them ....

OP, you have my sympathy. Ds1(5.7) is almost the same.
I posted a thread about a month or so ago, re alfie kohn, in desperation.
I truely do understand.
You are not alone. Many of the mums in reception told me that their children were also a nightmare and expressing same characteristics as my ds.
All had glowing school reports.
He has got a bit better recently though. Although I have no rela reason for this. Yet last week, he was a friggin nightmare.
Lets hope that th summer holidays creates better behaviour that continues when they get into year 1, eh ?

CloudDragon I have also dipped into that book, and found it useful

Oh no, DP and I were just talking about the fine line between making them realise they have really crossed a boundary, and not punishing them when they have forgotten what they are being punished for! Easier said than done, and my DD does the same sort of trying to make it up to me and I have to admit there have been times when I have been so hurt or angry that it has taken me a while to warm up to her again.
Movingout I can understand what made you do that, I think that's hard to take isn't it when you think how lovely their lives are compared to some other poor buggers!

Ouch, movingback, that's incredibly harsh. That's really upset me, actually.

I know you said you were desperate and wouldn't recommend it, but have you told her that you would never, never do that, no matter what?

Kids need to know that.

I have to say it's nice to know there are other desperate parents out there. If I had my son first I would never have known that parenting could be this hard. He responds like you expect kids to. Ie: if he is naughty he says sorry afterwards and moves on - he doesn't become even more entrenched like she does. She was stubborn from the start and never responded to cc like all the books said she would. (Three hours in which it got progressively worse and then ended in her making herself sick!)

Clouddragon, is that book by Stephen Biddulph? If it is, I think I may have it upstairs. Is it called 'How to talk so children will listen?' It all sounds like pretty good advice to me. I will go and open it up immediately. I have a feeling, really, that from what you have told me it may be the answer because the further I go with my punishments the more it fuels her fury. I know the problem isn't that I'm not tough enough - maybe it's time for a re-think. I laughed at your dh thinking it psychobabble - I just read your post to my dh and he said 'I don't get it. What's the point exactly?' But I know what you are saying!

Do you know what, Saintmaybe, I know it was harsh. And that is why I posted it. I am totally aware that it was over the top but it is sometimes hard to be a perfect parent when your dd is pushing so many boundaries.

I am sorry my parenting skills have upset you. I can tell you that I was not thinking at all about how this may have affect ed you as a person when I was cross with her.

Of bloody course I have hugged her and kissed her and said I loved her!!!!!!!!!! I was just furious that after several weeks of low and high level abuse with no end in sight that she was being so nasty, and with no precidence. I have lavished love and attention on her since (and before) and of course although I was amazingly cross at the time we have been on a much more even keel since then and she seems relieved to be able to be nice to me again.

I think that book is the answer for you! Honestly.

I can't see upping the anti working here. You take away more toys, and then more, you deny the next thing, and then the next waiting until it HURTS and the two of you are in eternal oppositional lock down of denial, manipulation vs pride and stubbornness. I'm sure that isn't how you want it to be either. . .

I think you need to step to the side here, and change the way things are acted out. the book is v. helpful for this - it changes the script. It does feel fake at first, but it works. Do read it.

I kind of hate the phone story. Sorry.

movingout -Me neither, or at least, you said one thing that possibly upset your daughter, and you apologised. If this is in the context of a loving, trusting relationship, then it won't do lasting damage. None of us is perfect, as you say

I think it was brave of you movingout to tell that story as an example of being pushed to the limit but I do think it's important not to to scare your children, however awful they are being. A friend of mine locks the door on her kids to stop them coming down in the evening - something which I find truly shocking, however often I wish I could. God knows I"m not in a position to judge but it might be worth retracting that one in my opinion. If I were you I would explain that mummy was really really angry when she said that but it wasn't true that anyone could ever take her away. And nor would you want them to. I haven't commented until now because I know you have been trying to help and I really hope you aren't offended because as someone else said none of us are perfect and I'm certainly not.

But the reason I came on here was to report to you all that I did cloud dragon's thing today and it worked - it bloody worked! We were in the middle of a showdown that was brewing to get nasty with the usual pattern of her not listening and me threatening another day on the shelf for her favourite toys when I remembered Clouddragons advice. I sat down next to her and said 'you are feeling pretty angry with your brother right now, aren't you darling?' (While in my head thinking 'he doesn't want to play with you because you wind him up all the time. He's the one that should be angry) And she stopped her rage and said 'I feel lonely mummy because he wont play with me'. What followed was a proper discussion in which she actually listened about how she needs to learn how to amuse herself and how if she wants her brother to want to play with her she needs to be nicer to him. But the interesting thing is that when she said she felt lonely i went from furious to sympathetic. This alarmingly simple advice is the answer - Thank you, thank you, thank you. I think myself and dd are more similar than I perhaps realised.

Hello, I fully understand what you are going through. My girl is 6, she will be 7 in October. She is a kind, loving, good girl when she is with me normally but when she stays with her dad she comes back with attitude and is so rude to me. Recently she stayed there for a week and has come back so different, she swore (said crap) but it was said in an innocent way, like 'these bobbles are crap'not a mjor swear word i know but she never swears, she hit me when she didnt get her own way, she doesnt listen, she back chats and it really is taking its toll on me. I am lucky that I have my partner to support me and he is great. He steps in when he see' sme struggling. Of course I realise this is different from what you are going through and its more because theres different rules here then what her dad has at his house but I can see how you must feel.
I have to say though (and i will prob make enemies for this) but we dont agree on the penny strategy or reward charts.....(it works for certain things) but I feel children should behave and respect their parents, because that is what they should do not because they are going to get a present at the end of the week for good behaviour. I use to use reward charts but realised I want my girl to be good because she knows thats how she is suppose to be towards me not because I am going to get her a magazine etc for it. of course dont get me wrong i treat her, she gets magazines, pocket money but it is because I want to do that and if she helps around the house, not because she hasnt hit me for a week. Hope that makes sense??
After sticking to my guns with her, we do finally get her back to her normal self but this time is proving hard. She gets sent to her room after a warning, she has no bedtime story, things get taken off her, and you have to follow through with threats of these things. Its so hard for me as ive missed her so much being away and now it seems all we are doing is nagging her, sending her to her room and it feels awful but we do try to make things fun, ignore the whiny, whingy crying that isnt actually crying, I tell her that i wont listen to her until she can use her words instead.
Sounds as though you are doing your best, it must be hard for you. Have you tried talking to her? I found out tonight that talking about my girls behaviour with her really helped us both, I understand a little more whats going on in her head and it was great that we both listened to each other and although shes only 6 she showed me that she can be grown up for a conversation like that. theres ways of talking to children so that you dont put words in their mouths and its child friendly you know. Maybe an idea for you to try? I just kinda talked to her while we were having dinner, so it seemed like a normal every day conversation.
This probably doesnt help and ive gone on a tad here sorry, just thought id give my opinion and advice. probably also helped me to vent.

Hope it all works out.
k.xx

My DD1 (4.6) is just like this. Sometimes I am completely at my wit's end. Dh and I have discussed it until we are blue in the face and I still don't know the answer. I do know that I too was an 'angry' child. I yelled, screamed, sulked, bit and kicked. My mother now is invaluable at cheering me up about everything with DD1 - she knows exactly what i'm going through! Sometimes I ring her and put DD1 on to the phone to her and she talks her back down from the precipice! I also understand the adult sulking thing. Sometimes after DD1 has been truely awful to me, she will try and try to get me to hug and kiss and forgive her and I am just so exhausted by it all that I'll refuse to engage. Which does not help. I know I mustn't do this, but I can still be angry myself... not helpful.

movingout... I have also said some bad things to DD1 at times, but please please try not to. The mental scars are the worst of all. My mother has been scarred for life (well I know that's a bit of an exaggeration), by my grandmother supposedly 'phoning the orphanage' when she was a similar age. It is the strongest memory of my mother's childhood. I swear it has effected their relationship to this day. My mother never trusted my grandmother again (and still doesn't bizarrely, but that's another story).

Socrosstonight - are you still on mumsnet? Just been reading this thread as currently my DD is displaying identical behaviours to yours which, if I have my calculations right, would be 9yrs ago now. What worked on the end for you?
My DW and I are thinking about sticker charts again.
Tonight my DD called me an idiot so I slammed my bedroom door in anger, then she slammed her door. I told her to clean her teeth whilst putting younger DS to bed and that she wouldn't be getting her priviledged late play that she looks forward to every night. Whilst reading story to DS she came in crying and gave me a hug. I read her a story but stuck to my guns and didn't let her have her late play. She didn't put up a fight, which surprised me but she did say that when she's older she'll tell her husband how mean I am and that I'll go to prison!
In her defence she'd had a bit of a stressful day at school and was very tired but her behaviour is wearing thin at times and as it sounds identical to how your DD was it would be great to here what worked, if anything?

Just wanted to say that this thread has been sooooooo…. helpful. I feel better that other folks concur how exhausting it can be to hold firm whilst being at the receiving end of shouting/mimicking/hitting

Omg, so glad to read this thread. I am experiencing something similar with DsmS age 6. He is incredibly stubborn, cheeky, rolling eyes, and yet, when he is good he is adorable. I had the feeling of really being pushed to my limits today. He hates shopping, but I bring him grocery shopping every week as I feel he needs to understand this is part of life. Today I had to get him an outfit as we have an event coming up. He was so rude and cheeky in the shop. All he had to do was try on one outfit, and that was a drama. I love and adore him, but today I seriously questioned whether I liked him. I know we have to separate the behaviour from the person, but honestly, that is sometimes hard to do. I work part time so have quite a lot of one on one time with him, yet he tells me I work too much and never have time for him. He is clever and bright and could negotiate for hours, but sometimes I just don't have the energy. We were at loggerheads the whole afternoon. His punishment was no TV, which he loves. We made up before dinner, had some chill out time on the couch, which was nice, couple of board games after dinner then early to bed. He will start school next week and I think he may be anxious about this as he refuses to engage in a conversation about it. Also his Dad travels quite a lot with work and happens to be away this week. In retrospect I feel he reacts to his absence by being moody and cheeky. If I do what he wants, all is good. Otherwise it's a meltdown. I am seriously beginning to struggle with his behaviour and can't understand it, as we do everything for him. I definitely think TV is a very bad influence on his behaviour and am thinking of cutting it out although. Sincere apologies for the very long post. I feel at my wit's end.

My DD 4 can be sassy and very strong-willed to the point I have no idea who she is at times. I do notice when she watches TV she gets a bit snippy so we do a fee days of no TV and then she can pick a documentary once in a while. I think she gets tired and starts to loose control in the evenings (as do I) but she refuses to nap. Instead we settle on quiet play in her room. My mom is an educator and says it is a sign of intellegence but I find it tiring!

@socrosstonight - I know it is very random to contact you after 10 years of you posting the original post but I'm absolutely desperate for some hope. My son who is nearly 5 years acts exactly the way you described your daughter. An angel outside home but a nightmare with me. No respect whatsoever. Answers back like a teenager, hits me, shouts at me..I am an emotional wreck and this is the only time that he apologises when he sees me crying (which is sweet but at the same time I don't like showing the weakness to a child)
I'm not going to describe all the problems I have with him as you went through similar issues according to your description. Just wanted to find out how are you doing now. Was it the age thing? When did it finished? What did you find helpful?