frequent tantrums lasting over an hour - spoiling family life. What is normal?

[bardenu]

my 2.11 daughter has recently been so awful with her behaviour that it is ruining family life and we feel held to ransom by her. She is very bright and articulate but her anger and determination know no bounds. She has always been quick to anger but in the last 2 weeks its been absolutely off the scale. I do ignore it and use all the skills I know but nothing seem to work to calm her down except waiting it out. Its so disruptive we can't enjoy the everyday. I worry that she has a serious psychological problem as noone else's kid seems to have such long tantrums - last night it was 90 minutes of screaming and kicking then she woke up this morning and within 5 minutes she was screaming again. I am finding I cant concentrate on anything else and feel really down. I am desperate to know if this is normal it just feels so extreme....and when do they grow out of this sort of behaviour.

is she tired?

when you 'wait it out' are you in the room with her?

does she appear to be coming down with anything? urine infection or throat infection cold etc?

my ds did go through a phase of needing to scream every day we didnt leave the house for weeks it did calm down and i didnt think the phase would ever end

can she be spoken to to find whats upset her to be able to calm her>? if not then you will probably just have to let her ride it out and hope phase will end just ignore if you cant calm her and say i will speak to you when you calmed down i'll be in living room when your ready then try and find what upset her

its an awkward age as they want to be more independent so if there's someything that she can do under supervision then let her rather than do it for her etc

i found the more independent i allowed my ds to be the more calmer he became

i hope you can get some peace soon it is hard but ours didnt last forever

Hello. Yes its much worse when she is tired (as she was last night) but this morning she kicked off after a whole night;s sleep.

I have started leaving her in her room and teling her I am outside when i wait it out. Is this right?

It seems a long time to keep it up. The important thing is not to give in or take any notice-she will carry on if she thinks it gets her somewhere in the end.
I would make sure that when she stops you give her lots of positive attention and spend time with her. Ask her what it was all about and tell her that if she screams like that you can't possibly know what she means and that if she wants something she will have to calm down so that you can hear (only say all this afterwards-no point at the time). Whatever you do-be consistent and she will get the message in the end, although some take much longer than others.

i would carry on as normal and let her come find you when she has calmed down

again i would say mummy cant hear when you shout so talk to me ok and try and find what caused her to be so upset

then lots of praise when she starts again mummy cant hear when your shouting darling talk to me if she doesnt calmly take her somewhere to calm down again come see me when you ahve calmed down then lots of positive attention again i cant hear you when your shouting eventually they do get it but stay calm keep voice calm and carry on as normal

Thanks bubblagirl. She has had slight cold but nothing serious. I do try to talk to her when she calms down (she seems unable to calm down and talk in her rages) and ask her what made her cross and tell her she should use words to tell me what is wrong instead of screaming. This mornig she told me it was about something that happened 24 hours ago when a friends kid wouldn't share her rabbit toy. That level of hanging onto things just scares me!

okay - sounds like i need to keep calm and just keep it up and see if there are any changes in the longer term. It IS a long time to keep it up - she has got a scary will of iron. I know it sounds stupid but should I talk to my gp/health professional about it or is that just neurotic?

my goodness what great memory my ds would never have had that at that age

i guess all you can do is remove her from you when like that and lots of attention when back maybe she'll realise when she acts that way she doesnt get to be with you but being calm gets her lots of attention

if it concerns you wouldnt hurt to talk to gp i did when ds went through the phase if anything made me feel better to tell someone who didnt judge

but if you can just block off and stay calm maybe if she sees no reaction then there's no point in acting that way

i think most children go through this some worse than other she may feel run down still ds is worse when ill or run down you always know as his behaviour becomes terrible

maybe get her checked incase sore throat etc something underlying that could be making her feel worse

I think this is quite normal, one of my 3 was like this at 2, in fact she is still capable of hour long tantrums spoiling our family life, and she's 7 now. Much of the time she's charming and helpful, these days, but still she has phases of appalling tantrus which do very much dominate things.

in other words I wouldn't see it as abnormal behaviour, some tantrum more than others, and some people probably never grow out of it.

thanks bubblagirl and fennel - wise women indeed. have been feeling like the only person on the planet lately. Good to hear it is normal but must be the extreme end of the normal spectrum. Kind of scary though to hear it can go on until they are 7! Starting to feel envious of mums with kids who dont have tantrums or who have short lived tantrums. And yes, she does have an amazing memory - she is very precocious - speech of a 4 year old and very bright - think this is part of the problem. Sometimes I think she thinks she is an adult and cant understand why she cannot do everything grown ups do by herself. Wonder if I do enough with her to keep her stimulated? Also worry that she will end up like her dad's brother whose tantrums were so indulged by the family that he has only just grown out of them in one form or another aged 40. Is it genetic? Been trying to have another baby (2 miscarriages over the last year - thats another story) but her behaviour is putting me off even trying again to have number 2 as I dont want another like this - what an awful thing to say.

I didn't want to make you despair with tales of my tantrumming 7yo. She's very lovely in many ways. Quite an extreme personality.

My other two dds are not at all like this, one never tantrummed, one only moderately as a toddler but not now (at 5). So you needn't assume all your children will. I only have the one wilful argumentative tantrummer out of 3 children.

maybe if you know what she is capable of doing then let her be more independent my ds was very independent at this age

just supervise and know in your own mind what she can and cant do and pick your battles good luck and hope it passes soon

Thats okay fennel. In my rational mind I know this. Great to get so much immediate advice and support, it really does help. Have not used mumsnet before but felt so desperate. I can now see how useful it is - I think that the lesson to learn with kids is that you can't always solve the problem overnight but you can get some support.

I definitely sympathise with you bardenu. In the last month or so DD (2.7yo) has started having ferocious tantrums that last for an hour or more as you describe.

Last week, three of the four nights I picked her up from nursery she's started screaming as soon as I go and get her (usually she flares up when I tell her it's time to stop playing and go home or stop her from messing around washing her hands ten times in the bathroom). It's awful having to carry her out of nursery to the car with her shouting "I hate you mummy!" or "don't want to go home with you!" then wrestle her into her car seat with the nursery staff and other parents watching. She'll then carry on when we get home, usually set off by not being allowed a biscuit or something, until I decide that enough is enough and put her to bed.

Like your DD she is very bright and independent with excellent speech. DH and I are both very chilled out characters, but my sister used to throw epic tantrums when she was small.

I keep telling myself that it will pass, but am finding it difficult to draw the line between trying to calm her down and give her minimal attention when she's acting like this.

If you are worried you could try something like Cranial osteopathy or ordinary osteopathy (with someone good with kids or The Children's osteopathy clinic). I'm not an osteopath but find treatments like that or massage or bowen technique can be really beneficial, even with emotional issues.
Good luck and wishing you much patience.

sympathy in spades flying your way through the ether...my DD was JUST like yours at the same age. she is now 7 and our life is completely different, but quite frankly, at your stage, i was in despair much of the time. no-one else's child tantrummed like mine, or for as long - or so it felt! her anger and determination knew no bounds, just as you said. i too was beginning to wonder if she needed professional help. in fact it just gradually...got better...and better...but in our case it took a few years. hopefully in yours it will be a swifter process. a parenting course i went on helped a lot, as did a book often recommended on here 'raising your spirited child' by mary sheedy kurchinka - the only book that really explained my child to me and made me feel better about her 'spirited' temperament!
good luck she will be absolutely fine in the longer term - it's very, very hard while it's at its peak though as it is with you. try 'buddhism for mothers' too, a work of genius!!! v helpful for calming us frazzled mums down, i find

ps LOL at madamdeathstare. loved your post. i have largely ablated from my memory the details of my own thespian-in-the-making's more public and shaming tantrums!!
pps re having another child, bardenu - i had a 2 year gap and it almost killed me bcs DD's tantrums were at their very worst when she was 2-3, and DS was 0-1 - all very bloody tricky - BUT the JOY of having a lovely cutesy blue-eyed smiley baby to take refuge in when things were hard with my adored-but-feisty DD!! i used to call him the balm to my tortured soul! and he is by temparement a lot more mellow. so one tantrumer does not necessarily another make

My dd's worst ever tantrum was on a coach to the airport when we were on holiday.
dd:Switch off the sun
me:I cant,put your hat on and sit away from the window
dd:switch it off offfff nowwwww!!!!
etc for the whole hour and 15 minutes,she was 4 at the time but nowshe is 34 with a 2.6 yr old and is on the receiving end.

Ah bless you all, so glad to see that you do emerge from this with a sense of humour. I just got some blessed relief with an afternoon at work and she was an angel at nursery and then stright back into screaming monster mode as soon as her foot was through the door. As her dad just said: its like handling an unexploded bomb. Katiek123 I will pursue the books you are talking about - I do feel like a need a hand to understand her as I haven't got a clue what goes on her bonkers little head when she is screaming it off. Choppychppster am sending you sympathetic vibes its just such a challenge. But madamedeathstare you made me laugh my ass off and I hope one day I can have a good laugh about the histrionics of my little miss. Now, as for that cranial oestopathy I think its my poor head that needs it...(grin).

I did a couple of things from 'How to Talk so Kids Will Listen ...' to stop the tantrums in full-flight. One of the things I do (used to do more) is - immediately that he starts I say 'stop' I grab a pen and paper or one of those sribble board things and start scribbly in fury then I say 'you must be this angry! Show me how angry you are!' and give him the pen and let him scribble and pop holes in the paper etc. Often we end up drawing him looking happy within 5 minutes. Bizarre, but amazingly it works quite often. If it doesn't, my last resort is a time out, but not alone. I take him somewhere and hold him until he stops (it's hard as he screams and flails and bashes) then do a very short 'you were very cross/sad/frustrated. Are you better now?' If I want to talk about it more than that I wait until another time (as much as you can talk about it with a 2.5 year old).

I do lots of avoidance stuff too. I try never to say 'You can't' 'I can't do it now' 'We don't have any cake' etc. I go for 'I can tell how much you would like to swing from the lightshade, I would love to see you swinging like a monkey but it would break and you'd fall off and go splat! You can jump off this box or you can run really fast in to the front room.' 'Absolutely, I can draw you a motorbike as soon as I park the car' 'I wish I could magic some cake - I would have carrot cake. I would magic a big cake hat and eat it off your head! Failing that, how about an apple?' Blah Blah Blah!
Failing that, I say 'Could you please pretend you are 30?!'
Good luck!

Actually - just re-read that - he hates being held now so he runs round hysterically with me sitting next to him until he's done. I just slipped back 6 months!

shylily sounds like genius despite fact you did it when he was younger. going to try it. thanks