should I trust my own judgement?

[tigermoth]

I don't know where to post this, nearly put it under the special needs topic.

My 3.8 month old son has no developmental problems that we know of. When he started nursery in September (a week after his 3rd birthday) he settled in quickly. I regularly asked his key worker and others about his progress and behaviour and they said he was fine. I was very proactive because my oldest son was hard to handle at this age. I was repeatedly told his behviour was normal for his age (no big hitting/biting/attention problem etc.) He wasn't keen on sitting and drawing (but then he was very young) and he was very lively, but he did focus on construction activities and imaginative play.

For practical reasons we changed nurseries in January. Again my son settled in happily, but I am getting increasingly unhappy with the nursery's attitude to my son.

On the first day, I gave his new key worker a run down of his old nursery's report - 'lively but normal'. I suggested she might like to contact his old keyworker. I got the distinct impression that this wouldn't be happening and the more I talked to the new keyworker (also the head of the nursery) the more I didn't like her. Couldn't put my finger on why.

Just 10 days into term she told me she wanted an SEN advisor to see my son. I asked why? how could they have come to this conclusion after less than two weeks? There had been no incidents, apart from my son being involved in a small snowball fight. She said that they found him difficult to control - although he would sit at some activities, he also ran around a lot and didn't respond quickly when they asked him not to climb on things. She assured me he was not the only one - two or three other children in the class of 16 would also be seeing the SEN advisor. I was not happy, firsty about her under two week assessment of my son, and secondly about her zero interest in referring back to his old nursery. I felt she had an agenda and was not asking my permission about him seeing the SEN advisor, but telling me this would be happening or else. Anyway, I swallowed my misgivings and went along with it for the sake of my son.

A few weeks later my son had his three and a half year assessment at our GPs. He passed all the tests but unfortunately threw an unusually big tantrum at the end of the session, while I was chatting to the Health visitor. I duly reported all this to the nursery as they had requested.

I had another meeting with the keyworker and she suggested my son had a hearing problem, that he had poor eye contact, he was clumsy - could I arrange a hearing test and also could he have a second three and a half year check up this time conducted at home? I phoned my gp. The nursery workers kept asking me if I had dates for these appointments, then asked if I could phone again, mentioning the nursery's concerns to make it a matter of urgency. The appointments were duly set up.

A health visitor who knows my son well came to visit us, did the 3.5 test again - my son passed it - and then spent an hour and a half observing my son and I together while talking over possible problems. He said my son's eye contact and motor skills were fine and agreed with the old nursery's verdict - he was lively but normal. My son's hearing test was fine too and the audiologists who saw him did not think he had a major behaviour problem. Like lots of little children he heard what he wanted to hear.

My HV had also explained that my son's new nursery may be seeking extra funding for staff and this is why they will want to get likely children in front of an SEN advisor. It strengthens their case. But the end result is good for all - higher staff levels benenfit all the children.

I reported the results back to the nursery and gave them permission to contact my HV if they wanted to discuss things directly. But I also wanted to be kept fully informed. I asked the staff if they still thought my son's behaviour was beyond normal and the answer was yes.

We decided it would be good if I stayed with my son in the nursery for an hour or so a few days a week to observe him. I did this and IMO he was one of four or five lively boys. He did run around but also happily focussed on some of the play activities (surely few 3.8 year olds focus on all of them?) and he was pretty good at sharing his toys and cooperating. He certainly got on well with the other children. When another boy repeatedly tried to steal some plasticine balls he had made he told an adult, rather than shoving him away. He lined up when he was asked to and put up his hand to answer questions - some of the time. Of couse it's difficult to know what he is like when I am not there, but I have been told he will sit and be obedient as I witnessed, but just not all the time.

A week or so later my HV phoned to tell me he was cancelling an appointment to come in to observe my son at nursery and would rebook in May. I told him I knew nothing about this and he was surprised.

I was very shocked and angry that the nursery had gone behind my back when I had been so open with them. I had been in the nursery so much that there had been ample opportunity to tell me. When I collected my son that day I told the key worker about the cancelled appointment and asked her to tell me if they had any dealings with OUR health visitior - just as I'd asked. She knew I was angry.

That's the background here here are the issues I'd like opinions on ( please )

I feel my own perception of my son is at odds with the nursery's perception. I do not feel my son's behavour is beyond normal and am worried he is getting singled out even if it is for the greater good of the nursery ie increasing staff levels. Should I go along with the nursery's view?

I'd be interested to hear from those who have special needs children (behaviour issues). I get the impression that usually it's the parent who feels their child has special needs and it's the nursery /school etc who are slow to accept this. I seem to have the opposite problem. Do you think I should trust my own judgement?

Just to complicate things further, I have always thought my youngest son is easier and better behaved than my oldest son was at 3/4 years. I definitely do not feel so stressed looking after him. My dh, on the other hand, disagrees with me and says my oldest son was an easier child.

Help!

again I am rushed for time but wanted to say another thank you all for the messages and info. I do take the point that if the nursery see my son as a problem, this in itself is not good for him, however happy he seems to be.

I feel I need to play for time, firstly to see how my son settles down at the beginning of term and secondly to see what conclusions are drawn after our HV visits the nursery in early May. I wonder what would happen, for instance, if the HV again says ds's active behaviour is within a normal spectrum? Would the nursery still pursue matters and bring in an SEN advisor or not? And if they cannot or do not do this, would the keyworker feel hostile towards my son, thinking he is plain naughty, rather than possibly SEN?

I do know that nurseries (and primary schools) differ hugely in their attutudes to SEN/challenging/problem behaviour. I have only had experience of state institutions so can't speak about private ones. In our borough my sons in total have spent time in 5 different nurseries and 3 different primary schools,all with different attitides it seems to me on what constitutes SEN behaviour.

My oldest son went to a lovely nursery and had IMO more behaviour problems and was more lively. I had several meetings with his teachers. No one made the suggestion that an SEN advisor should be involved or that my son's behavour was beyond normal.

Of course I could take my son out of nursery entirely, but he so enjoys it, and I am freelancing so need some form of childcare and I may soon be back in full time work again.

I think jimjams and others make good points that to get an SEN assessment takes a lot of effort and these assessments aren't given out lightly. And if your child has one, it might be temporary. I am not against this happening, but really want to feel it is needed and the support will produce results for my son, not just help raise the staffing levels at the nursery.

Must dash again - will return!

I'm still incredibly sceptical of the nursery putting your son on the register just to secure extra funding. The money just isn't there for that to happen. Our nursery has something like 10 or 15 kids on the reigster (out of a roll of approx 50)- 5 of those have complex SEN and the only one who receives any extra funding is my son- and that's always under threat. The pre-school advisory teacher has requetsed extra help for the other 4 complex SEN's - but nothing "funds are not available". If it's that easy to get extra funding in your LEA I'd like to move there please

Something has just occurred to me though. Over the last couple of years there has been a big shake up with special needs. Since January 2002 then new code of practice came in and the buzzword is inclusion. Children have to be included in mainstream wherever possible. What that means is that you will probably find that your children share their classrooms with children with quite complex SEN. For example 5 (even 2 or 3) years ago my son would have gone to a special school, but because he is coping well in a mainstream school we have no chance. So he will be in a mainstream classroon with 29 other kids come September despite the fact that he can't speak andhe isn't currently toilet trained. So what all this means is that mainstream settings have over the last couple of years had loads of investment/training/new charters/god knows what else/ about special needs. So in some slightly over-enthusiastic hands too many children may be identified. Mainstream settings are actively encouraged to recognise and deal with SEN- and this is somethins that is ofsteded- so it may be very new to the nursery.

Not sure how useful the HV will be. They tend to be a bit dozy when it comes to SEN. It might be better for the ed psych to have a visit, as they're interetsed in resources as well, so they're really not going to say there's a problem when there isn't.

Maybe your best bet is to have another meeting with the nursery. Say you have no worries about them keeping an eye on him, but you do not want him to see any outside agencies without your knowledge or consent.

I suspect it may be an over-enthusiastic application of the new code of practice.

Just a few thoughts.
you could ask to talk through the situation with the SEN advisor, either to decide whether you want her to come into nursery, or when/if she sees your child. that is absolutely your right.Sounds like the nursery is overreacting. the sen advisor should be able to help the nursery be more objective. I'd be a bit spectical about the health visitor going in.
just a thought
hope it all works out

Another thought. The SEN advisor sounds like the pre-school advisory service round here. The one we have is dozy beyond belief (terribly nice but terribly ineffectual). I don't think she is really qualified to make judgements about whether or not a child has SEN. Ours was part of the mulit-disciplinary team that assessed our ds1 but I don't remember her report carrying much if any weight. She has some control over the purse strings in that she recommends to the LEA if a particular setting requires extra resources for a partciular child, but she would only recommend that in exceptional circumstances. What I mean is if your SEN advisor is the same then she wouldn't be providing anything more than a personal opinion. If she was to say "your child has X" then that wouldn't be seen as a proper dx or assessment. If there were real genuine concerns about a particular SEN then your son should be seeing a paed, or at the very least an ed psych.

It might be worth checking with the nursery how they see this progressing? If he's just at stage 1 (there are 5 stages) then it really doesn't mean anything other than they are keeping an eye on him to see if there are any problems. In fact until the new code of practice was brought in you probably wouldn't have even been told this was happening- they just have to do it this way now to satisfy ofsted. Ask to see their code of practice. Ours sets out what happens at each stage- and these should follow DfES guidlelines.

I think I'll ask what training the nursery staff ( especially this keyworker) have in assessing SEN. I know the staff aren't trained teachers and I have the impression they have not been nursery carers for a huge number of years. At a recent parents/staff meeting they mentioned that they go on regular training courses (including the manager) - whether that means they are 'in training' or simply updating their skills, I am not sure.

Ahh .. you mention ofsted, jimjams. Around here it strikes fear into many a teacher according to our friends. I have a feeling you are right about the priority not being securing funding but satisfying ofsted. I only mention the funding aspect because that's what the HV told me could be at the root of this, and perhaps he knows things about this nursery that I don't. Could it be a matter of the more children they put forward for assessment by an SEN, the more likely they will be to get general staff funding? only guessing.

I definitely feel the staff are being overzealous in their efforts with my son. I sense reports are being written on our every move - they were extremely keen to know the exact dates and times of the hearing test and HV home visit, for instance.

I do have an old contact at the nursery - an acquaintance who is a nursery worker and used to work at this nursery. She did not know my son was going there but when I told her (a few days before he joined) she said it was a rather chaotic place and shook her head a bit. I will hunt her out and have a word with her too especially about the training and experience of the keyworker.

Jimjams, I did know the SEN system had changed recently, but was unaware that a child could be put on level 1 of the SEN register without the parents being told. That's a bit alarming.

Sorry I don't really have anything constructive to say tigermoth but can understand your frustration. I assume all this is in writing, even stuff from your HV etc? Don't know how much that matters but just a thought!

no nothing is in writing so far tinker - at least nothing that I have seen (apart from audiologists report). I may well ask to see reports if any outsider is called in to look at my son in the nursery.

Oh no I think the parents should be told. Our nursery informs parents if a child is causing concern and tells you of their intention to put a child on stage 1. What I meant is that stage 1 doesn't really mean very much - and in the past children causing that sort of concern would probably just have been watched - rather than formally assessed as needing to go on the SEN register. It does seem a bit strange that they want all the exact times of appointments etc. That may be an ofsted record keeping thing as well though. I think I'd still be tempted to change nurseries - if you can of course- not always easy I know.

Hi Tigermoth - I really sympathise with you. Your ds sounds a lot like my ds2, a handful, but IMO a normal toddler. I was dreading him starting nursery in Feb after my bad experiences with ds1, but so far have been pleasantly surprised - am not getting hauled in everyday and they do seem to genuinely like him, though they do say he's a flibberty-jibbet (sp?) (ie doesn't spend too long on each activity) However, my paranoid self does keep kicking in and wondering if I'm lulling myself into a false sense of security and will be in for a shock come summer report time, we'll have to see......

Definitely agree that different nurseries' defintions of normal behaviour can be quite contrasting, that has been my experience too. I know I'm rambling here, it's hard to concentrate as the kids are running amok. I'm sure you've had lots of good advice from everyone here. I say, trust your instincts, you know your son better than anyone else. Hope you get things sorted soon.

This thread has given me lots of food for thought. I will definitely be adding to it when my son starts his new term.

I am away for a few days so will pick up on this later.

I think all those who said my husband has forgotten what a 3 year old is like are spot on. My dh has had a very different time with son number 1 and son number 2. He is not the major carer of son number 2, but when son number 1 was three years, my dh was a SAHD while I worked full time, so was much more hands on.

I think the difference has clouded his perception. I have been reminding him of DS1's behavoiur traits at 3 years. I think he is slowly remembering that life wasn't all roses then.

Thanks again for the support everyone.

Tigermoth
I don't have any experience of nurseries myself, but my sister inspects both local authority and private nurseries. She is a huge believer in learning through play, and I can imagine the kinds of things she would say about what appears to be the desire to regiment behaviour at such a young age. She sees many nurseries which try to impose rules and behaviour which are totally wrong for such young children. It worries me that all the children who are there full time are notable as being 'quiet'. Children this age shouldn't be 'quiet', that's not what their life and their enthusiasm and energy are for.

more news:

When we went away on holiday last week, dh and I were talking lots about my youngest son. First evening, in fact, we had a very 'lively discussion' culminating in me telling dh to S** off and keep his ill founded opinions to himself until he too had stayed at nursery with our son.

Over the next few days, after seeing lots of ds in action with other 3 year olds, dh had a rethink. I did too, because I know that dh is an excellent judge of character and has had lots of experience of caring for three year old boys even if the experience is not that fresh. Plus it's unusual for us to clash so much in our views.

By the end of the holiday, we'd both backtracked, decided to be open minded and vaguely met in the middle of the road.

My son started nursery - nothing eventful happened until I picked him up on Friday. I was told by a nursery worker (a nice one) that our HV had visited them that afternoon. (The key worker was away). I immediately went into angry mode, asking why I hadn't been told about this in advance. To cut a long story short, the nice worker was very apologetic and managed to placate me - I think there was a communication mix up. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Anyway the HV had assessed my son in context of the nursery and again said he was lively but normal. He was very definite about this according to the nursery worker. the nursery worker also told me that they are making progress with my ds - he's been better at sitting and make a collage rocket today. They said his eye contact has improved loads.

I then said will you be taking things any further now? and got a 'yes'.

On Tuesday an SEN advisor is coming in to offer suggestions regarding my son and other children. The aim is to get them doing more writing, art and craft activities. That's all fine with me. I think it's probably a good idea.

However I then casually asked, so will that lead to an SEN assessment for my son? and the nursery worker said posssibly it would .... ahhhhh!!!!

So I am keeping close eye on things. Again I have asked to be informed of all meetings BEFORE they happen. I am allowed to go to nursery on Tuesday, and can stay while the SEN advisor is there. So that's where I'll be.

Copper, thanks for your message. Sorry I didn't reply sooner. I think you're so right in saying this nursery expects too much to too young. I am sure when I went to nursery, all I did was play in the wendy house.

Tigermoth, I think you're being extremely tolerant and reasonable! I'd be furious that this nursery is seemingly incapable of communicating properly with you about YOUR son. But I'm still sure your approach is better and will get you a lot further than mine. Good news about the HV visit, not so good about the SEN visit although at least you have been told about it this time. Hope it goes well on Tuesday and glad you and DH met in the middle in the end! Completely agree with you about the Wendy House.

To be honest if it is anything like the first SEN visit that was organised for my son, then it really is just a matter of a worker coming and watching for a bit, and then giving the nursery a few strategies to help them improve any areas where the child may struggle. In our case it really was very wishy washy - not much help to anyone, but certainly not anything that would have repercussions later on.

Tigermoth - caught your post on the other thread. Your son is very similar to mine as I've said before. He isn't very good about sitting still and gets upset if he's 'crowded' - apart from the other problems I've mentioned he is just a very lively child.

I have a friend who changed nursery recently and she was amazed at hte difference - the old one they were expecting far too much of the children. Obviously more lively children aren't going to be so cooperative so alarm bells are going to ring. At the end of the most important thing is you ds is fine in your eyes not that of others.

Hope you get it all sorted out soon.

I do think you're right to think that many nurseries expect too much.

However I'm with oakmaiden- these vists mean very little. And what do they mean by SEN assessment? I can guarantee it won't be a statuory assessment (ie statementing) as that's extremely rare- and often has to be fought for- at pre-school level certainly doesn't happen without a diagnosis of something. They probably just mean "keeping an eye on things". Just trying to reassure you really- SEN identification really really really doesn't have ramifications for later on.

Good luck with the SEN visit on Tuesday, tigermoth - just sorry the nursery seems incapable of keeping you informed as a courtesy. I stand by my view that ds2 is just a sweet little pickle with an indecent amount of energy. Just wait til he is an international triathlete or spotted hauling sledges to Antarctica single-handed...glad your dh has formed a less contradictory view of him, too.

thanks for the messages. Batters, I think I will get the nursery to put their views on my son in writing - and while they are at it, also state that they'll tell me in advance of any SEN/HV meetings.

I'm sure they'll be OK about this, but it will be interesting to see if they are not.

Thanks for the reassurances about the SEN visit. I am now even more unphased about this. If I am allowed to, I will look forward to asking the SEN advisor a few questions re my son, if she has the time.

After the visit I will ask the nursery staff what happens next, if anything.

Thinking of you Tigermoth. Hope the SEN advisor is a great person, experienced, and has some time for you. Our SENCO at school is fantastic, and as she sees in children with all sorts of different difficulties on the whole range of levels, she is great at seeing the bigger picture. Hope it is a positive experience for you all, and not the trial you are dreading.

If she hasn't time tomorrow, you should be able to make an appointment to talk to her one-to-one about your son, if you think that would be helpful.

Hope the visit went ok today Tigermoth, thinking of you.

I'd like to echo the good luck messages Tigermoth, and say that I agree with everyone on this thread. I'm sick of this 'one size fits all' expectation regarding the behaviour and skills of little ones, especially bys, who are sometimes more boistrous and energetic. I think Steve Biddulf, or-whatever-his-name-is-can't-be-bothered-to-look-it-up certainly has that right.
At least you have DS down for a good school in January. They perhaps don't need to have a report from his nursery days, do they?

tigermoth, I've missed all this (away when you first posted) and haven't time to read it all now but anyway echo the others' good wishes and hope things turn out well.

just a quick update. I met the SEN advisors today and stayed with my son in the nursery this morining. I could see that the staff and the SEN advisors were having deep professional discussions, so did not want to butt in too much. I did get the chance to state in front of all of them that I was happy if my son was being helped along with the rest of the lively group of chlidren in the context of the nursery day. If, however, they wanted to focus on him alone for any reason, I wanted to know this immediately and discuss it before any action was taken. The SEN advisors said they are going to see how things go over this half term. I also told them that the HV had three times seem my son and assessed him as lively but normal.

I did not ask for the nursery staff's views in writing (the time was not right) but will do this in the next few days.

The keyworker said that the problem from their angle is that the nursery just happens to have a more than usually lively group of children at the moment and they are finding it difficult to cope with them. I hope this is all there is to it - will wait and see how the next few weeks go.