too intelligent for the other kids in the nursery???

[sjb2405]

hi, i am posting for advice and to see of anyone else has ever been told this. a member of my family were asked by their sons nursery to see a paedeatrician about his behaviour. He does not associate with other children, does not communicate, does not play, has no idea of what is dangerous, hurts the other children. They said if he was to stay in nursery they would have to get funding for an extra helper next year and i think they were maybe after a diagnosis of ?? autism?? learning disabilites? not sure. He is very hard work and is not like any other 3.5 year old i have come across. The doctor said that he is so intelligent that he gains nothing from the other kids as they bore him and he obviously gets his stimulation from his parents. His parents are quitedelighted by this but there is something else not right. I am no expert but can the other 30 kids in nursery really be so dull. unlikely I would have thought. Any thoughts or experience very welcome.

cyberseraphim, a child with glue ear might learn names of cars.

Glue ear varies a lot in what level it is and what sound frequencies are blocked out. Prehaps the child has had periods of reasonable hearing and periods of dire hearing.

However glue ear is so easy to rule out, it would be silly not to do so as a precaution.

Yes - it definitely needs to be looked at and in practical terms, you cannot get any dx until all hearing issues have tested. It's definitely not silly to think about it but I looked into this a lot (admittedly only on the internet) but most children with glue ear that I read about had delayed/badly pronounced normal speech - but anyway this is something that only be checked in real life.

Very interesting as he has had 6 weeks of speech therapy but that is all and is being sent for hearing test. The hearing is a strange one as it would explain a lot but when his mum sayd anything to him he repeats it back. Example " say goodbye to granny" he says "say goodbye to granny". i tried very hard this week to talk to him about all sorts of things and he wouldn't answer. he just randomly said the names of cars. he needs some sort of help but it all seems very slow in coming. Head in sand is not helping.

Yes - it definitely needs to be looked at and in practical terms, you cannot get any dx until all hearing issues have tested. It's definitely not silly to think about it but I looked into this a lot (admittedly only on the internet) but most children with glue ear that I read about had delayed/badly pronounced normal speech - but anyway this is something that only be checked in real life.

sjb2405, my son did this of repeating what I said. Have echolia is a symptom and its possible for a child to echolia without autism.

The child realises that when someone says something to him, its polite to reply back. He either is not hearing what is being said to him properly, or does not have the language to make a sensible reply.

Infact echolia is a stage of speech development, however most kids past through this phase very young (as babies) and pass through it extremely quickly.

littlechildren.wordpress.com/2007/10/08/echolalia/

Echolalia at pre school age is a sign of immaturity of speech. The cause of delayed speech developement could be anything. The child is not necessarily autisic.

Any language emerging is a good sign - even if it is echolalic as it shows he is listening to language and trying to join in. I'm surprised that it has taken until 3.5 for the services to even try to kick in - Was there no 2 year check in their area?

cyber - DS did OK at 18 month check, then couldn't get a SALT/paed referral until 3 - ("there's a wide range of normal" etc was the standard fob off response I got". He didn't get NHS SALT till 3.8, (and useful NHS SALT until 4.3, but that's another issue) and didn't get seen by paed until 4.1.

agree with reallytired's comments about echolalia. If he does have a receptive language issue, then it's best to keep language v. v. simple, and back up with visuals - gestures, photos etc.

whatever your family member is saying to you about intelligence etc, it's positive that he/she is going through salt/paed route - actions speak louder than words I think.

this is all really interesting and very helpful. the only problem is i am not his mum and i have to try and convince one very stubborn woman who knows better than anyone else. i don't know about other checks. i only found out all of this via 2 other relatives and the mum involved said "it was nobodys business" she is my sister. she never askes for help, never reads a book/website and ignores all advice. she asked me for advice on potty training and when i said "put on pants and get the nappy off" she refused as " i don't want the house smelling of piss". In some respects i want to just let them get on with it but on the other hand she needs help she has another one due in 8 weeks. Maybe i should be on a thread called "dealing with your awkward sister!! thanks everyone. it has given me a lot to think about.

I can't see what you can do really then. She is going to have to sort this out in her own time as she really sounds like she isn't going to listen. It must be very frustrating for you seeing your nephew and wanting to help but not being able to.

"Paedaetrician said he couldn't be as he doesn't line his cars up." Dear god. My severely autistic son has never lined cars up in 10 years. However, he can match people to their cars over a year after a very brief meeting.

I certainly have lots of alarm bells ringing.

Not sure what you can do if parents aren't going to push for a second opinion though. Hearing check a good idea.

Given the parents' apparent unwillingness to accept that there MAY be some developmental issues with their son, I don't think we can absolutely believe what the paediatrician may or may not have said. The OP is only hearing what the parents have chosen to pass on and is not even hearing it direct from them but from another family member. We all hope that no paed made the comment about not lining up cars but in this instance it sounds much more likely that the parents have deliberately or unconsciously only picked up on what they wanted to hear from the appointment. I feel very sorry for the little boy but I don't know what more the OP can do than be there when the penny finally drops with the parents. When will he go to school - this September? Presumably, issues like the lack of understandable language and potty training are going to become even more difficult to ignore then?

I think that part of the problem with the autism label is that some people unfairly use it as a term of abuse and parents understandibly get offended.

Very people have any clue what autism actually is. Many people naively think they are an expert because they have had a lecture as part of a course on childcare or read something on the internet or watched Rainman.

If your sister has seen a paediatrian then her son will be in the system being assessed. Unfortunately it takes times to get a diagnosis as the little boy will be on a waiting list for quite a few health professionals. Also the child's development needs to be monitored over a period of months. There is no quick fix.

I agree there can be 'worried well' types fearing autism around every corner but if it is the case that he has no spontaneous communicative speech at 3.5 then it is indicative of a problem that needs urgent attention. But it is very hard as an outsider to discuss these issues with parents. The nursery have already done their best and I am sure the issue will come back at school and as ReallyTired says, he is in the system and professionals may make vague misleading comments prior to a formal diagnosis.

There are two issues - one he may be autistic and an early dignosis is a good idea although of they cannot tell and sometimes it's just borderline. Secondly he may well be clever. They shoudl consider schools children enter inthe private sector at 4+ in competition with other very bright children where everyone in the class is clever and they work at their own level with the class or even above it from that age. My children really benefited from an academic education amongst other clever children from age 4 or 5 and I am sure now 3 of them are at university stage it did help as the pace the whole class worked at was high.

We have a relative who like yours knows things - in your case he knows all makes and models of cars and this one knows the whole London undergrouind map my heart and a huge number of other things and but is at an academic private school which has a good few quirky boys like that although even there he doesn't tend to have friend at break times very much I am told but he is certainly in the right school for him.

Xenia - You are right that some very clever children may have ASD like features but these children will also be able to speak in sentences and express themselves - and that's what the OP is concerned about. My DS1's knowledge of cat and dog breeds was much admired at 20 months but that knowledge did not follow through into normal speech.

Their recent acknowledgement that there is a problem has basically been that he is different from other kids but they don't want a child like the other kids. the other thing i found out is that they have a very close friend with a child who has a severe form of autism and this might be preventing them from wanting to make a connection. I got in touch with my sister yesterday and said "glue ear?". the GP has referred them to an audiologist (?) but this was ages ago and they have no appointment. If it was me i would be on the phone until i had an appointment. I am at the stage now where i feel quite strongly that i am being told things to shut me up and i am on the verge of being told to mind my own business. Do any of you ever get that feeling that if you could just get your hands on a child and give them a big hug and a kiss and tell them that they are brilliant that everything would be ok? Daft I know but i would love to see him smile.

it's draining chasing up the appointments. absolutely emotionally draining. and my moaning and groaning to assorted health pros about the delay (8 months for SALT, 13 for paed) hardly ever met with anything other than a patronising there there, haven't you done well getting him on the waiting list. so please don't judge her if appointments aren't coming through quickly.

If she has a close friend with an autistic child maybe she is sharing more with her and feels (wrongly) that you are trying to take over ? Unfortunately there is rarely any urgency in giving either a diagnosis or therapy for autism but if a paed is involved then something should come out of the pipeline eventually.

sjb2405, prehaps your sister is knowledgable and doing everything correctly. Audiology often has terrible waiting lists, in our area its about 39 weeks for an inital appointment.

Unlike adult audiology you can't even go private, because you need a paediatric audiologist with special skills. Testing the hearing of a young child with communication problems is quite a challenge. The lack of paediatric audiologists is real nightmare for many children.

Actually I think its sjb2405 sister who needs a hug. When I son had developmental problems I got all kinds of cr*p advice from people who seemed to think I did not care. Or they judged me without knowing any facts.

it does sound like your sister is doing everything appropriately - even if some of her comments seem a bit like bravado - her boy has seen SALT, paed and is waiting for a hearing test - it doesn't sound like she's sticking her head in the sand and refusing help or advice from the relevant educational/health professionals. cut her as much slack as you can, it's a horrid time for a parent.

You can go private, there is an excellent paediatric audiologist in the SE that has a private clinic (as most NHS consultants do)

My DS (3.5) had/has severe echolalia, which particularly mortifying when you walk past a gang of teens who are swearing, and many of the other things you have listed. We were told many things inluding that he had Global Developmental Delay (GDD).

A year on his NHS SALT who previously dismissed him as generally behind and having learning difficulties has decided ( along with the private SALT who assessed him for our Ed Tribunal and several other consultants) he actually has, amongst other things, a severe speech/language/communication disorder which is more affecting his receptive than expressive speech, he also has a word retrieval problem and CP which has affected oral motor skills.

I can understand why you are concerned, but all you can do is support the parents in what they wish for your nephew. Maybe, if you spend time with him, it would be worth learning Makaton and teaching him a few signs? Worked for us well.

Lining cars up = autistic? I better get both DS check out then

I am no expert, but both my nephews have problems. One is ASD and the other has Aspergers. Not sure what OP's nephew? has, but clearly it needs investigation. I don't know if labels are helpful, but certainy the additional help you get may make a difference. The nursery in all probability knows what it is talking about (DNs school picked up their problems), and so she really is being a bit silly sticking her head in the sand.

sorry only read the op as am at work so not got much time but this sounds EXACTLY as ds1 was wehn he was at playgroup (tho he never hurt other children- thats ds2!)- he was and is very very intelligent and is autistic. we didnt have a dx til he was 6 tho and when he was at playgropu we always thought he didnt play/talk to or with the other children as he was too clever for them.
i think a referral is an excellent idea and best to get it sorted asap.

I have a friend who I think suffered from undiagnosed PND - which has continued - and the result of this (and underlying OCD) is that she has effectively smothered her dd with attention. My son is almost 2 yrs younger than her daughter. When he was just over 2 and therefore her dd nearly 4, my son had clearer speech than her dd - I did less translating for him and he could make other, not well-known (to him) aduults understand him. Friend has a speech therapy qualification. However, from having her finish off dd's sentences, translate etc and therefore never have to try to communicate so that others could understand, she hugely held back her dd's language development.

It might be something like this is also adding to your sister's ds's potential issues.

We have had a glue ear diagnosis - ds has a perforated ear drum one side and glue ear some of the time the other - we're hoping he will grow out of this, although he will need an operation to mend his ear drum when he is older. most people forget about this when they hear him talking - although we can tell when the glue ear is worse. But we have a private consultant that we can see whenever we need to with this and it is a great relief to be able to ring up for an appointment, and get rapid treatment when required.

My first thought on reading the OP was what else did the paediatrician say? Lots of very bright children and adults function perfectly well in society with the rest of us mere mortals. Intellectual maturity is one thing but it is separate from emotional maturity.

If I were his parent I would be arranging to socialise more with other children and asking for the paediatrician's advice on what to do. If he is so bright then he should be able to understand the boundaries of his behaviour. The fact that he doesn't seem to communicate with the adults at nursery and hurts the other children means there is more to this than an apparently simple diagnosis.