RE: Pushing and Hitting - Down Syndrome boy 3.5yrs

[Bagpipes]

Just new here - Maynot be in the right area, but thought I would ask anyway. Does anyone know why young children, go up to other children and deliberately push them to the ground, or try and over cuddle them (ending up with a strangle hold) My DS - who is Down Syndrome, does have good speech, fortunately, he is delayed of course, but can converse with other children. I have been trying for over 12mths to stop this kind of behaviour - it isn't just once in a blue moon - its everyday, and several times per day. I have tried, the time-out, firm voice, even smacking, nice touching, gentle touching, no touching etc... BUT he just goes back, to any children he comes in contact and does it again, and again and again. I have been told by his therapist - he is not an Aggressive child???? So why does this happen, and how can I stop it. thanks ( in New Zealand)

Bagpipes - I really don't know but I wish I did! Our ds hasn't got downs syndrome, and is younger - 17 months, but pushes other children all the time, and it's really embarrassing... On a bad day it's like you can't really take them to a playground because he's going to knock all the other children over..! dp and I are really hoping it's a phase, and like you, we're constantly saying 'no pushing' at him. He also seems to do it more with children he knows are push overs (literally...), i.e. younger/smaller children. He's fine when he's around much bigger children.

I don't think ds is particularly aggressive in himself - loves cuddling his soft toys etc., but is just like this all the time around other children.

So, sorry I've not been much help - but you're not on your own..!

Hi bagpipes welcome.

I have an almost 4 year old with autism. He has language delay, but understands quite a lot (can't say anything). When we come across something that goes into the category of "absolutely not allowed to do" eg kicking the cat, pulling baby brother off the stairs I have one punishment. I put him outside the room. thn shut the door briefly- for maybe 15 seconds. He understands that now as meaning no way! I use it for all sorts when I have to and he really understands that he has gone too far. It is hard when they don't necessarily understand but I've found it a useful method.

Where in NZ? I worked in Dannevirke for a while!

Hi thanks for the comments so far - glad I am not alone on this one guys. I am in Christchurch New Zealand. My son attends early intervention each week - where he does Speech, physio, cognitive work, computers and individual music. He too, can be a very loving cuddly caring wee boy. He has wonderful manners - just said to me today, No thankyou mummy - but around other children he consistantly wants to push, or pull at them, or over whelms them with more than your usual cuddle. He loves gadgets, and all our hi fi gear, pcs etc.. are well out of his way, otherwise he would constantly turn things on and off non stop. I too can not even go to the Down Syndrome support coffee mornings with other DS children - as he seems to be the only child who doesn't want to comprehen what NO is, or stop that. My wee boy is very high functioning and doesn't miss anything - too clever at times I reckon!! Look forward to other suggestions. Many thanks so far.

Bagpipes, I'm sorry if i'm way off the mark, but sometimes I thnk when people say they've tried all sorts of different strategies, it can mean they've chopped and changed too much (usually in desperation) and this can lead to inconsitnecy & confusion. are there other discipline measures you've used in other situations that have been successful?

My friend has a big prob with her son screaming, and she wrings her hands in frustraion saying she's tried everything but nothing's worked. I really think maybe she should just choose one method and stick to it till it does work, but be absolutely rigid in it. I'm a firm believer in 1 telling 'no', one warning with threat, then carry out the threat, and it seems to work. Obviously only threaten what is reasonable & what you can & will carry out.

I was driving me & friend & kids on a day trip once & we were in the fast lane & her dd was playing up, so she threatened her that she'd get me to stop the car & she'd take her out & spank her bottom in front of everyone! Even a 2 year old must know there's no way she's going to follow through. then she threatened if dd carried on that she'd get me to turn around & go home - I mean, we'd been driving an hour & were about 5 mins away from destination.

To try & be more relevant & helpful - you day ds has a good level of understanding, well I'm sure you've tried the - no pushing. The, if you push again we'll have to leave the playground, then if he does push again actually leave. (You could just go to another part of the park where's there's no cluster of kids) How does he respond to this, or do you think it's too strong for him?

Next time you went you could remind him you had to leave early last time & encourage him that this time you're sure he'll be better this time & try the positive encouragement apporach.

Or if he does just push smaller kids, is there any way you can try & steer him clear of them?

Sorry if none of this has helped.

Thanks Monkey I know exactly what you are saying - but working along with my therapists we have tried to be consistant with all these rules. We only changed them, because his behaviour seemed to be getting worst, never any better. Today for example, I took him upstairs where all the hi fi gear is pcs, etc.. This is a place where we don't allow him to go - so if he does go up there with me, its a real treat. Do you think I could get him to stop from touching cds, turning the cd player on and off, touching the tv button on and off. After 30mins of me being firm and saying NO don't touch that - I was fedup, trying to reason with him. So, I said oh well we will have to go downstairs now. He didn't even blink an eyelid, no tears nothing - it was like, well ok mum, I got to have a play, it annoyed you - but hey I'm ok!!! He can be very, very loud screaming alot during the day when he is so angry ( often not sure - we just think at times frustrated) But this is annoying and hard on the rest of the family. Again working with our therapists, we have tried using "quiet voice inside", but no matter what we say he will still scream, doesn't stop him from doing it. We know he obviously thrives on attention - which we think being the middle child and all he gets more than the other two. He loves books, he loves programmes like the Teletubbies and Barney - But is very difficult to break such behavioural habits. He escapes from out of his seatbelt, he trys to open his door in the car - He loves to "touch" (is there anything remotely related to why a child likes to touch so much) - umm food for thought - touches children ( normally far too hard) gadgets, vcrs, pcs,no fears of opening a hot oven ( but will say its hot!!)dishwashers, phones, microwaves, - basically I have always said he is obsessed with these sorts of things - Any comments greatly appreciated!!!!!

Dear bagpipes ... not much advice on the actual pushing over front as luckily my DS isn't that tactile with others but I agree with monkey on the consistency front ... I have tried lots of different approaches with my DS for other things and thought they didn't work but when I took and angle and stuck to it for a few days it began to work.
Have you tried telling him that the other children don't like it? I know that sounds really simple but I have a friend whose little boy is very tactile and she tells him that they don't like it and is seems to work.
I also think that some children are more tactile than others ... the same friend's little boy just loves going over to others and jumping on them ... his idea of fun and my DS hates it ... not easy for either mum in coffee mornings but we know that each child is different so we don't let it get in the way of us getting together IYKWIM ...
PS ... Hooray another mumsnetter in NZ!! I am in Auckland by the way!!

Hi bagpipes ... me again ... our last posts crossed ... so I guess telling him that others don't like it won't work then??? I wish I could me more helpful but I am so bad at disciplining my own DS that I don't think I have a leg to stand on with advice for others
Just wanted to give my support .....

Hi Ghostly, thanks for your support - My DS has an ESW in his kindy 3 times a week too, so all his therapists, and kindy teachers, ESW all ensure we do the same rules. At present when an incident happens at kindy they are firmly removing him from the other child, they also tell him no touching, so he is not allowed to touch the children, as this was often becoming confusing for him. As he can be a 'big hugs' type of child, everyone wanted to pick him up and cuddle him!! We use the time out room at home (laundry) but this behaviour has been going on - I thought it was twelve months, but its more like 18mths. Thanks for all the useful advice - really do appreciate it. Ghostly, if I could break his "behavourial issues in a couple of days" - it would be like winning first price in Lotto . Glad to talk with someone so close AKL - Thanks again.

What's an ESW? I think you and all your support group have the right idea ... I think you will have to just keep going ... easy to say I know but if you keep talking about it it may not seem so bad all of the time. What does your therapist say (or rather DS' therapist)? Does he/she think it is a phase? I don't know much about Down Syndrome but is this specific behaviour connected to it? Sorry for asking ... just being curious ... hope you don't mind ... X

Hi Ghosty - an ESW is an Educational Support Worker, who goes into kindy or preschool and supports your child with special needs. Once he starts school he will have a Teacher Aide to support him there. Our team of therapists, say this behaviour is what any child may encounter nothing to do with being Down Syndrome. Hey I don't mind you asking at all about Down Syndrome. They pretty much are lost for words too - I am starting in a new class this coming term, with new therapists and hoping someone there will be able to offer some advice too. He does this pushing this pushing and slam dunking to all kids at the clinics too, so the therapists have seen it for themselves. But again, just say keep on with "Nice touching, et..... He's a very busy, sociable boy who loves other kids, loves to sit and read books, play with his sister etc. Just wish the pushing would stop first - can deal with the gadgets touching later LOL

Hi Bagpipes,

My ds who is 3.8 use to push children. He too was and still is a loving little boy so I was never sure was this him trying to be friendly.He has grown out of it and he is fine when we go to the park etc now. When he use to do it I would take him away from the other child and tell him that wasn't nice etc.If it happened at the park I would imediately take him home which as you can imagine didn't go down too well. He eventually got the message. Just keep doing what you are already doing and it will all come right. My friends ds was a biter so everybody has their problems at some time.My ds was never a biter but hers was never a pusher.It isn't easy.

Good luck