Really violent toddler need help urgently.

[CharleeInSpring]

My DS2 is really causing problems, he is 2 and has always been really violent, he is discaplined consistantly but it has been to no effect.
Most of it is directed at DS1 who is as we speak curled up on the sofa completely covered in cuts and bruises and bite marks, what prompted this post is DS2 Smashing DS1's face into a desk in our house and has now split his lip and nose open.

I just don't know what to do about it, like i say DS has never been alowed to get away with his violence but any amount of discaplin doesn't work.
He is at nursery 1 morning a week and is as good as gold there.
It is usally over toys and the fact that he wants whatever DS1 has got.

I am concerned that someone will see DS1 and report us as he looks like an abused child all the time.

DS2 has his 2 yr check next week and i will say something but any past attempts at telling the HV's about it have just been met with asking me to go to parenting classes, which i attended but didn't really find helpfull.

Please any advice will be welcome.

AT this age you need to hover by REALLY close and be ready to spring into action in an instant to whip the younger one out of reach/parry the blows with your arm

Toddlers want stuff now, for them it's all about me me me, no empathy yet.

You may want to step up the supervision you give - this is a phase that some children go through and should pass in time.

When you say discipline, what do you mean?

DS" has been like this since he could crawl at about 10 months-ish and it has just got a lot worse so i worry its not a phase.

I supervise them constantly but sometimes i do have to turn my back to answer the phone/door or go tothe toilet or do other daily things and he is just so quick.

I am really worried about the effect it is having on DS1 he is a quivering wreck and is scared stiff of his brother (DS1 is 4 btw) he is so nervous and tearfull all the time now and like i say to look at him he is covered in bites/scratches/bruises and now a big gash in his face.

We have a naughty chair which we switched to after a year of time out in the hall way which didn't work, this is also having no effect even after months.

Im at a loss i don't know what to do, everyone comments on the state of DS1's face and arms, i hate to think what they wouls say if they saw his torso.

If your boys were the other way round in age you would not leave them unsupervised if there was violence, so I think your first priority should be to protect DS1 by NEVER leaving them unsupervised or turning your back for a second. Take one of them to the loo with you etc.

I think you should speak to your HV about the violence to ensure it is within normal levels and to get some help. I know it is horrible when you have a violent child - my DS1 is 2.8 and the most even tempered, delightful, non tantrumming boy ever...with adults. With other children he is constantly pushing and pulling hair and I know what you say about it happening so quickly. No amount of disciplining or talking through feelings etc has helped so far but people tell me it is just a phase - a loooooong one so far and I can't wait for it to be over. You are not alone, believe me.

Charlee has anything happened recently that could have made things worse - a change at home, starting nursery, being ill etc? My DS is much worse when tethikng - thank goodness his last molars are finally through.

have you tried giving him lots of 1 on 1 attention? ie separating them at weekends and both taken somewhere fun by different people?

have you tried piling on the praise when he's behaving nicely (even vaguely nicely).

have you tried sticker/reward charts with treat at end of week for achievably good behaviour? a bottle filled with marbles is good. take 1 out for hitting and 2 out for biting. what he's left with at the end of the week determines his treat.

i would focus on stuff like that instead of naughty steps/chastising etc keep going with withdrawing him when violent but focus more on distraction and praise.

A few things to try that are not directly to do with dealing with the behaviour as I am sure there are other MNetters that will be able to help you with that, but these are a bit more general. Try:
Going for very long walks, play in park, football, where your DS can let of some steam, often children are indoors too much and tension can build up and generaly being outside as much as possible.

Try Fish oils, some evidence suggest these can help calm behaviour down.

Keep a log of 'incidents' to see if there are any specific triggers, note time of day, what heppened before after etc. You can start to see a pattern that you wouldn't have otherwise spotted

Give as much attention and love as you can at other times to stop the negative cycle.

Do activities as a family, your DS2 is perhaps jealous of your DS1

And I agree with the other posts, step up your supervision then you can stop poor behaviour but also see good behaviour and comment on it.

HTH, good luck

bumping for you in case anybody else has any advice

I agree with TheProvincialLady You wouldn't leave them unattended if it was the big one beating up on the little one.
Have you tried addressing the reasons why your 2yo acts like this? If any?
FWIW, my toddler is a bit violent at times to the new baby and (I'll get flamed for this) I can't wait until the baby is old enough to hit back.

I'd try to give lots of positive attention to the youngest.
Do you have some help? Is there any way you can spend some one on one time with each of them?

Thanks for your replys.

Nohing has happened recently to trigger bad behaviour, like i say he has always been a violent little chap.
Although saying that DS1 has cystic fibrosis so he gets a lot of time with us for physio and nebulisers and things he also has a lot of attention from all the cf team but we have always made sure DS2 gets attention at the same time so he doesn't get left out.

I do pile on the praise and i will step up supervision and speak again to the HV.

We try to do loads of energetic activities like long walk, play parks and other things as he is a little ball of energy.
I also try to incorperate a certain amount of more quieter, relaxed play like this afternoon i have been doing puzzles with them as DS1 is a puzzle whizz and DS2 is just beginning to 'get' puzzles.

He is a lovely little boy and can be really friendly and cuddly but even his cuddles and kisses are very intense he really grabs your face and forces kisses upon people but he managed to get through an hour of quiet puzzles and stories so he got tons of praise for playing nice.

I shall continue as i am going and see if he gets better with age, i think after xmas he will be better as he can go to school more often, he really loves school and playing with other kids.

Thanks for your advice ds2 was such a shock after ds1 who even tot his day has never been a live wire he is so chilled out and almost lazy at times.

Thanks again. x

howsabout playschool? could he not go a few days a week?

It sounds as though you are already doing lots of positive things and are aware of the things that will improve DS2 behaviour. Hopefully the HV will have some new things you could try.

Could you perhaps make a reward chart for good behaviour? We used to do this with our DD and it worked well but make sure you phrase the rules in a positive way i.e

DS2 will be nice to DS1 and asks politely when he would like one of his toys and NOT DS2 must not hit or scream to DS1 if he wants a toy.

We used to have 5 rules (make sure there are at least 2 in there at the beginning you know he will succeed)and if she stick to these all day she would get a sticker on her chart and when full she would get a toy.

Another one that I read about was a jar full of marbles or coins (whatever works best) and when good you put marbles in the jar and when naughty take them out...

Hope you don't mind me saying this, but I believe "naughty step" and "sticker charts" is a very British thing. At least it's unknown where I come from (Scandinavia) and I believe it may actually add to the violent and selfish behaviour of toddlers and older children.

It's all about themselves - when they are behaving well, something nice will happen to THEMSELVES (i.e. praise, stickers and toys) and when they are misbehaving something bad will happen to THEMSELVES (naughty step, being ignored, being yelled at).

What I find works to help our children become empathetic people who care about other people is to explain when they hit and nick toys etc. that it is unacceptable because they are hurting THE OTHER PERSON and making them cry etc. Likewise when they do something nice, explain that it was really nice of them and look how happy they made THE OTHER PERSON.

And then showing them how to interact e.g. if they would like a toy that someone else has got - ask for it nicely, offer to swap with another toy etc.

Just a thought. Hope it gets better for you soon.

NewDKmum - I have a rather stroppy 2 year old and I have never thought of it the way you put it but it makes sense!

The sharing and swapping - yes - already do that. But have never thought of the 'down' sides of sticker charts - food for thought - ta!

lol, please make sure before reading any further no DC will read this!

When I was little I was an absolutely horrible child and my parents started a reward chart (In Holland in the eighties) I had to behave 28 days (long time!!) and then I would get a big present. This is still very much in the forefront of my mind but I behaved very well and met all the rules for 23 days but unfortunately I got caught out at the last hurdle and had to start all over again. (gathered dog turts in a shoe box, cover with sand and placed newspapers on top set fire to it (tears running down my face now as relive the look of horror on the faces of the victims) and set light to it, rang doorbell and hid round corner. Ohh the joy! Am sort of convinced my mum is sort of proud as those people werent the nicest villagers!

For some DC rewards will work and for some simply explainig that being hurt is not nice will do the job and for some nothing will work till they get older!

NewDKMum, the naughty step or similar was certainly in use in Scandinavia in the 60's (clear memories of being put on the kitchen table) but I don't think we were a particularly unruly or violent generation. So possibly it's other factors. I do think an over-reliance on punishment/reward can create discipline problems though. It's not what you do (within reason); it's about how often you do it. A child that is being punished a dozen times a day is likely to grow a little blase about punishment. I was punished maybe once a month and it made an impression.

Hi I know this is years old but it sounds exactly like my story now and I'm really worried about his behaviour. I'm wondering if you still have problems or if your toddler grew out of this behaviour. Any tips would be much appreciated. X

he is only 2 and you cannot leave them unsupervised! if you need to answer the phone you ALWAYS need to take the baby with you. 2 year olds don't understand that the baby falls over if they take away a toy etc. You are making him feel guilty and bad about himself by putting much too high expectations on him.

I have a baby and an almost 3 year old and I NEVER leave them alone for more that a few seconds, and even then sometimes things happen. Even my almost 3 year old doesn't really understand, sometimes she just wants to cuddle but will grab the baby in a way that she falls over, or baby is standing while holding on to a table and she'll want to take her hand causing the baby to fall over etc..

You say your son is as good as gold in nursery so probably he is not such a bad child as you think. I think by creating situations where he hurts your little one, he has also been made to feel like the bad guy and started to dislike his younger sibling. It's very important to break this destructive cycle. From now on, you need to get a carrier or sling for the baby and make sure you don't let any situations like that arise.

Your DS1 is in a terrible state from what you have said. How many seperate occasions has he been subjected to violence from your DS2 to have got, in your words, plural :

cuts, bruises, bite marks, split lip, nose, scratches, on his face, arms and torso?!?

Why is everyone focusing on lots of praise for the 2yo like it's the odd bang on the head with a toy or something? Doesn't anyone else think the above is really shocking?

I understand that 2yo can bash but I am going to stick my neck out and say that to have your DS1 age 4 "completely covered in cuts and bruises and bite marks, what prompted this post is DS2 Smashing DS1's face into a desk in our house and has now split his lip and nose open" and "DS is a "quivering wreck and is scared stiff of his brother... covered in bites/scratches/bruises and now a big gash in his face." and "everyone comments on the state of DS1's face and arms, i hate to think what they wouls say if they saw his torso" - this is not normal. This is excessive, even from a 2yo who doesn't really understand.

OP I completely sympathise with you, it sounds like you are doing a good job under difficult circumstances, but you must keep searching for help or answers. I have strong-willed boys too, and have been through terrible twos that lasted until 4 :) but I think it is not going to help if people, in trying to support you and sympathise with you, aren't reflecting that the injuries your DS1 is sustaining are shocking. If it was a one-off, or there was an incident three weeks ago and another today, then that's different, but if you read over what you have said, it is excessive and it is shocking. And your DS2 does need some sort of support. I don't know what or how but I'm not sure sticker charts are going to cut it.

In the meantime, you need to raise your concerns again with HV or doctor. There might be (I don't know) behavioural issues more than the terrible twos, that are best tackled earlier than later.

Ah sorry this is a totally old thread, sorry! I was talking about the OP who said DS is 2 in 2009! Disregard.

At only 2yo, he is really too little to understand time out and "naughty chair" approaches.

People have already given you lots of suggestions, all I can say advise is to make a huge fuss of DS1 when he is on the receiving end of an attack and leave DS2 to stew without any attention. Then, when he is being lovely - even if only for a few moments - make sure you let him know that you've noticed his good behaviour and tell him how great you think it is (a hug or pat goes down well too).

It is horrible, my lovely DD went through a phase of being regularly walloped by her little DBro - because he knew it would get him a huge reaction. But he is steadily growing out of it.

Charliee81 - you'll probably get more relevant responses if you start your own thread. People on here are mostly going to respond to the OP.