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Behaviour/development

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Friend's DD's temper outbursts

26 replies

unhappyplaydates · 19/02/2009 11:14

I have a friend with a 4 year old DD who frequently plays with my 3 year old DD. They are both spirited, boisterous girls who generally play well together with the odd spat. However, reasonably frequently (i.e. once in every three or four times they meet) my friends DD will completely loose it. She throws herself at my DD, kicks her and scrapes her nails down her face, often drawing blood. It's usually precipitated by a "usual" disagreement over a toy or she says my DD pulled at her - nothing that should have provoked that kind of reaction.
The think I find difficult is my friend never disciplines her about it. She just says saomething along the lines of "you really shouldn't do that - it's not nice" (although my friend is always completely mortified). She has a very relaxed approach to discipline, and has made it clear she thinks I'm controlling (I use Magic 1,2,3, or will remove DD from the room for a serious misdemeanor, make DD sit at table to eat etc.). She says her DD is too sensitive to discipline more strictly and says she can't control her temper(though she never seems at at upset after her outbursts). She frequently attacks her parents like this and other children she's close to. Obviously it's up to her how she manages her child, but I'm beginning to wonder if I should say she needs to take her daughter home if this happens - I'm really fed up seeing my DD treated this way and to my mind my friend letting her get away with it. She'll see it as me trying to punish her DD, and it will certainly ruin our friendship, though (we go back a long way and I was hoping we could weather our child-related differences). My DD obviously gets upset when it happens, but is still happy to play with her the next time (otherwise I would obviously stop contact). What do people think? Should children be disciplined for temper outbursts like this, or is it really beyond their control?

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Tamarto · 19/02/2009 11:16

How four is she? What i mean is, is she just four or is she nearly five?

unhappyplaydates · 19/02/2009 11:17

She's just four

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thisisyesterday · 19/02/2009 11:17

personally I wouldn't allow her DD to attack mine like that.
I realise that sometimes it might occur when you aren't there, but if you do see it happening I would actually remove her and tell her off.

I would still say something to her even if you don't witness it... I have zero tolerance for aggresive behaviour and any kicks/scratches/hits would be absolutely unacceptable from my child or anyone elses in my house.
At 4 she is old enough to know that it is wrong. my 4 yr old certainly does.

if your friend has a problem with it well, she'l;l soon find herself with very few playdatyes won't she?

thisisyesterday · 19/02/2009 11:18

oh and my son is just 4 (in feb) and still knows that behaviour like that is totally and utterly unacceptable

Twims · 19/02/2009 11:21

I agree she should be disciplined for something like that.

Maybe when you next speak say that you're not sure you can meet up as dd is upset about last time ie when she was attacked by the other child, then maybe ask her what she thinks you should do as they are obviously good friends but this is affecting DD - Puts the ball in her court.

I would also do a reward chart type thing for each visit - maybe cut down the time so if they come for an hour do 6 stickers each - explain that if they play nicely for 10 minutes they will each get a sticker - if they have 6 stickers at the end of the playdate they can have ... a snack... a milkshake... a badge etc.

Also state to the child that dd was very upset when you scratched her last time, if you do it again then it will be time to go home and stick to it if she does scratch then say you were warned that if you hurt dd you would go home, maybe you can be nicer next time

thisisyesterday · 19/02/2009 11:21

actually, if you have them round again I would say to them that they're to play where you can see them seeing as it always ends in tears.
that way you get to see what really goes on as well

DogMa · 19/02/2009 11:27

Bide your time. She's in for a right shock come September, when she starts school! School will be on to that kind of behaviour like a shot and her mum/dad will be hauled in to discuss it pretty damn pronto! They'll be less bothered about her delicate nature when that happens.

unhappyplaydates · 19/02/2009 11:29

Twims - thanks for the advice. Fortunately (or unfortunately in some ways) her attacks don't seem to upset my DD for longer than a few minutes (she's a sunny little soul), and I think I'd feel a bit "passive aggressive" using the affect on DD as the way of dealing with it. I agree though I think I'll have to say she needs to go home if she does it again and will obviously stick to it (will warn her mother in advance I'll be saying tis to her DD). Also agree TIY it would be a good idea to say they need to play within sight. Like you i have zero tollerance for this sort of thing with my DD (not that she ever been agressive to this extent)and even at three she knows it's wrong, which is why I don't think it's right for her to put up with it and not see any repercussions for the other child.

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unhappyplaydates · 19/02/2009 11:30

Dogma - agree with you, but she apparently doesn't do it a pre-school, which suggests to me she does have some control, and knows where she can't get away with it.

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morningsun · 19/02/2009 11:31

it may be beyond her control but in your house i think her mum should take her home if it happens or soon your dd may follow suit or get really hurt.
This happened at toddler group to me once a little boy went round generally terrorising the others hitting and scratching over toys with mum happily chatting away.One day he took my ds helmet off his head and put it on himself and my ds tried to get it off his head,other boy held fast.
my ds clonked him [first time ever],other boys mum ran over and shouted incredibly loudly at my ds much to everyones amazement as shed never told her own ds off so we'd just thought she was really slack lol!
maybe you could say if it continues your dd won't want to play with hers any more

thisisyesterday · 19/02/2009 11:33

well if she doesn't do it at pre-school I would totally agree with you that she does it at yours because she knows she'll get away with it.

def talk to the mum and tell her that you can't keep having this happening and that if it happens again you will ask her to take her home

AnnVan · 19/02/2009 11:51

morningsun dp's aunt is like that. Her DS1 is a real little bully (he even likes hitting and pinching ver young babies) He hit a 2yo girl, but when the girl hit him back his mum gave her mum the most filthy look ever. But their attitude to hims 'I'm not going to tell him x because he won't do it anyway'

unhappyplaydates · 19/02/2009 12:00

Thanks for your responses everyone. Feel more confident to deal with it - my friend always impliesher daughters temper is more like a disability rather than a behavioural issue to address, and that I don't understand the problem. Glad I'm not the only one that thinks
it's unacceptable behaviour.

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unhappyplaydates · 19/02/2009 12:00

.. implies her.. Sorry

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AnnVan · 19/02/2009 12:03

OP - that sounds like an excuse and a copout from the mum tbh.

lilymolly · 19/02/2009 12:19

I have had a sort of similar issue with my friend and her ds and my dd- they have both just turned 3. They do rub each other up the wrong, way, but he reacts in a more violent way, and will hit, scratch or even try to bite my dd. I make sure I never take my eyes off them and make sure that If I see him do anything like that to my dd, I will discipline him by saying "do not do that please" I think lets the mum know I am not happy with the behaviour, but I am not getting too involved, if that makes sense?

It does put a huge strain on a friendship and last week at playgroup he was horrendous again, having a tantrum just because she had gone to the toilet without him, he literally screamed for about 10 mins and she tried to placate him, which made it worse, as he got loads of attention, she then took him home and it took both of us to carry him to the car and strap him in the seat- she then burst into tears and said she cant go on much longer.

Now I would have just let him scream until he got sick of it and gave him no attention - just put him in a corner andlet him get on with it- but she claimed she gets too embarrased and would rather have got him out of the playgroup situation.
In other words he got far too much attention for his bad behaviour.

It has got to the point where I am reluctant to meet up for play dates, as it is such hard work- this is very sad as I love her company and know she needs as much support as possible over this difficult phase in her ds life.

I would try to be honest with her, and hopefully if she is a good friend, she will accept your help, and try to work it out together.

HTH x

purpleduck · 19/02/2009 12:47

Thing is if her dd's temper is a "disability" then its better to deal with it NOW. So many children are excluded because of a bad temper

smartiejake · 19/02/2009 13:12

To sensitive to discipline? What a load of tripe. The child frequently attacks other children and her parents because she is not being given the strong enough message that this is unacceptable.

Four is old enough to deal with this more firmly. If the child controls this at preschool she knows exactly what she is doing and sorry but if she can choose when and when not to lose her temper, it's bad behaviour not a disability.

Agree with the other posters that she will get trounced the minute she walks in the reception classroom door. They won't take the excuse that she is too sensitive to tell off!

I would ask her to take her home as, regardless of how your friend wishes to discipline (or not)her dd, it will send out the right signal to your dd. (Love 123 magic BTW- used it with mine when they were little)

cory · 19/02/2009 21:36

I would remove the child instantly and take her home/up to her bedroom. If your friend can't interfere, she is (with all due respect) a whimp.

My dd was never one for sticker charts, but I left a lot of social gatherings with a howling child tucked under my arm: I felt that was my duty. And eventually the message seeped through.

unhappyplaydates · 20/02/2009 09:04

Cory - I agree and I would do the same. It's interesting, though - she's anything but a wimp about most things but seems to have a blinkd spot about her DD.
I'll talk to her next week before our next meeting as this really can't go on.
Thanks for everyone's responses.

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lulus · 20/02/2009 09:21

Good luck unhappyplaydates. Its been interesting reading this as my little one is only 21months but has this week hit two children who took toys from her. while i can understand her frustration that they took the toys, i can't condone the hitting back - and so have been firmly saying No hitting to her and making a point of saying sorry to the other child - hoping it will sink in and / or my little one will grow out of it.

As for embarrassing tantrums in public - had an oscar winning performance on saturday - i did not get embarrassed just spoke quietly and calmly waiting for her to decide it was not so much fun after all - and trying not to respond with an expletive to the man who told me ' that child needs a slap '!

lulus · 20/02/2009 09:24

Good luck unhappyplaydates. Its been interesting reading this as my little one is only 21months but has this week hit two children who took toys from her. while i can understand her frustration that they took the toys, i can't condone the hitting back - and so have been firmly saying No hitting to her and making a point of saying sorry to the other child - hoping it will sink in and / or my little one will grow out of it.

As for embarrassing tantrums in public - had an oscar winning performance on saturday - i did not get embarrassed just spoke quietly and calmly waiting for her to decide it was not so much fun after all - and trying not to respond with an expletive to the man who told me ' that child needs a slap '!

unhappyplaydates · 20/02/2009 10:01

Well done Lulus - sounds like you handled it really well (and some adults just need a slap, don't they?).

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CaurnieBred · 20/02/2009 11:15

This was happening to my DD when one of the mums from baby group came round. DH made a valid point that we couldn't let this go on happening in our own home. DD should feel that her home is her "safe" place and she shouldn't be terrorised (sic) in it. I didn't say anything to my friend but now try to meet at neutral venues.

Smee · 20/02/2009 12:41

Have thought about this issue a lot, as we have a neighbour who's similar. Only thing I'd say (which I know you know already!), is that it's not the child's fault, as she's just been allowed to get away with it. The little girl I know is 5 and still the same. And yes surprise, surprise she's having problems at school. Here, I gently said that I knew her daughter was tricky, but that I couldn't have her behaving in my house in a way that my son isn't allowed to, as it wasn't fair on him. I asked the mother if she'd agree to us saying to both kids that if there was any fighting playtime had to stop. That way it wasn't all on the girl, as I didn't want her to feel like she was being seen as naughty. Fortunately her mother agreed - actually she seemed pretty relieved. A couple of times they had to leave, but it has worked. The little girl's a lot better now and we've even had a couple of sessions where there's been no attacks. I've given her a big hug both times and given both kids a small treat to say well done. Both kids seem happier too and the mother's over the moon, so if you're lucky it doesn't have to wreck a friendship.